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Why turn off rr's and roads UTX Europe?

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rpowers46 View Drop Down
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    Posted: January-27-2011 at 9:34pm
This was brought up in Avsim Forum.Why does Nick suggest to turn off roads and railroads in UTX when using GEX Europe?I did it and didn't like it but I didn't turn off encasements etc so I didn't do it right,but still have to ask the question.Thanks,Ron
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Thai09 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Thai09 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-28-2011 at 7:50am
Yep, that's weird I think, limiting the Sim to get it to function with an addon!

I don' t use GEX/UTX anymore...


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Anthony Vos View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anthony Vos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-28-2011 at 9:22am
Ok guys. There is a little bit of a misunderstanding going on here. I will quote what Nick said in his sticky "GEX Europe Features/Suggestions to use..." ;
 
 

"You may wish to try UTX/GEX Europe with UTX roads and railroads disabled. We know VFR flying requires those roads/rails since they are correct in geographic location however sometimes its nice to not have roads cut through autogen and across textures. The roads on the GEX tiles are static and of course are not following the real world like UTX does however they are very highly detailed and if VFR flying is not required you can temporarily shut the roads down in the FSX Scenery Library."

 
Note the "you may wish to try" and that there is a trade-off or balance as to what you MAY like regarding VFR or IFR flying. Personally I leave the roads and railroads ENABLED and set the roads up in the UTX setup tool to show only the major highway and interstates and disable all the rural and urban roads. Disabling them from UTX will make the sim use its DEFAULT rural and urban road database, so you will still see rural roads but from the default road network database in conjunction with the UTX highways and interstates. That enables me to accurately fly following the A2 here in Holland with the RealityXP GNS430 and have a gorguous show at the same time... Wink
 
[EDIT] Moreover, why would Nick write such a detailed outline as to how to set the roads and encasements up to get them to look as realistic as possible and then say turn them off? As you can read above; he does not, but states its totally depended on the user preferences and any given situation in the sim. 
 
As for the railroads; I don't recall having railroads in our textures so they can certainly be left enabled in the UTX setup tool, which I have too.
Nick is referring to the cut roads and autogen but that is minimal with railroads anyway...

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rpowers46 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rpowers46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-28-2011 at 11:50am
Anthony,Thanks for the reply.That clears it up.One other question.I have SceneryTech EU installed and I think I did the glacier thing right but it was quite awhile ago.How can I check to make sure?Thanks,Ron
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rpowers46 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rpowers46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-28-2011 at 3:14pm
OK,Disabled minor roads and it made a big improvement.Is this recommended only for Europe or USA and Canada also?Thanks,Ron
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Herky130 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-28-2011 at 3:28pm
If you take a look at Seattle, flying over the city, with UTX roads "on" there is a clash with the GEX scenery roads.  The UTX roads don't line up with the city blocks! I turn UTX roads off when in that area and find the view more realistic.
 
Like Nick says, its nice not to have roads cut through autogen and across textures in certain areas.
 
Its personal taste at the end of the day!
 
 
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Anthony Vos View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anthony Vos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-28-2011 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by rpowers46 rpowers46 wrote:

Anthony,Thanks for the reply.That clears it up.One other question.I have SceneryTech EU installed and I think I did the glacier thing right but it was quite awhile ago.How can I check to make sure?Thanks,Ron
 
If you installed any of the GEX main options after installing ST LC, the glacier textures are corrected...Wink

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Anthony Vos View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anthony Vos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-28-2011 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by rpowers46 rpowers46 wrote:

OK,Disabled minor roads and it made a big improvement.Is this recommended only for Europe or USA and Canada also?Thanks,Ron
 
Depends on you, but... Canada has fewer build up area's like the US or EU, especially in wild mountainous and forest area's so I think you would need to find what suits you the most. I tend to leave the minor rural roads enabled for Canada and together with the flatten offset instructions from Nick, it looks cool flying through the Alaskan / Canadian North-East Mountains... besides, since there's little build up detailed area's in general performance would not be much of an issue. Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quantumleap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-29-2011 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by Anthony Vos Anthony Vos wrote:

Personally I leave the roads and railroads ENABLED and set the roads up in the UTX setup tool to show only the major highway and interstates and disable all the rural and urban roads. Disabling them from UTX will make the sim use its DEFAULT rural and urban road database, so you will still see rural roads but from the default road network database in conjunction with the UTX highways and interstates.

The above is inaccurate. In no case of configuration of roads in the UTX Setup Tool would default FSX vector roads show, rural/urban or otherwise. If you have UTX enabled it will exclude all default vector roads. Of course the faux roads which are just painted on the ground textures (FSX default or GEX enhanced) will display.

Jeff


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Anthony Vos View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anthony Vos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-29-2011 at 7:56pm
I'm sorry Jeff.. You are absolutely correct. Disabling them in the Scenery Library menu defaults back to the original FSX vector roads. I should have known better... Embarrassed

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rpowers46 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rpowers46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-30-2011 at 4:28pm
So,now I am confused.Do I leave them enabled in UTX and disabled in the scenery library?Or disabled in both?As of now I have only major highways and minor urban roads enabled in UTX.Everything enabled in scenery library.Thanks,Ron
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quantumleap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-30-2011 at 4:54pm
You should never be disabling UTX entries via the FSX Scenery Library. Always use the UTX Setup Tool to activate/deactivate features.

Jeff


Check out my aviation photography and digital art at Photisify
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NickN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-30-2011 at 5:03pm
 
 
 
 
I think Jeff may be mixing something up here. I just verified this on my laptop.

If I disable minor rual roads in the UTX Config tool (and UTX roads are enabled in the scenery libary) then the default FSX minor roads do appear. At least that is what I am seeing here. Therefore what Anthony was trying to convey is correct (in a way). FSX default roads out in the rurals are very few but they do appear when the UTX config tool is set to disable them for UTX. This does not appear true however for the urban roads or the majors. So perhaps there is something about the ruals that is different. None the less in any case the encasements must be removed when using such methods with respect to the larger roads or the enacements will appear without the roads on them.

If you ENABLE the roads in the UTX config tool but then DISABLE UTX roads using the FSX scenery library, then NO ROADS (UTX or FSX) will appear. They are all removed in the UTX coverage area. 

So what I think Anthony is saying is he sees LESS ROADS in rurals by using his method because FSX by does not define very much in the rurals (hardly any). Therefore enabling just the highways and removing the minor or other roads in the UTX tool will significantly reduce the roads in FSX but leave the major or important thoroughfares. 

FYI: For me personally, if I use roads (which I usually do) in the USA I DISABLE the minor urban residential roads/bridges completely because those force way to much onto the urban textures and nearly completely removes the autogen, it looks far worse than the static roads on the textures. In Europe I will usually disable both the minor urban and minor rural roads/bridges for the same reason. Although there can be a detraction to removing minor rural roads when flying places like the Alps.. the trials and roads in the Alps are removed too. But then I can turn them back on if I wish to have that in a Alps flight..   its not rocket science  Wink

The user must figure out what it is they like and dislike or what they require for where they fly. My suggestion of turning off roads in Europe was just that, TRY IT and see if looks better. Its not set in stone and not a requirement of course!

Honestly, I think Paris, France looks far better and more realistic with UTX tool roads enabled and the FSX scenery library UTX roads DISABLED as that gets rid of both FSX and UTX roads completely, but thats just me. I do miss the bridges using that method but at least Paris is full of buildings as it should be from the air and without huge chunks of missing autogen. If someone needs those roads in Paris to VFR, then enable them!

And as I have posted, I use roads enabled at night (this lights up Paris, France correctly at night which is far more noticable to me) and when I must have VFR for a certain flight. I will typically leave all but minor urban roads/bridges enabled in the USA at all times and do not disable from the scenery library in North America.

Your Mileage May Vary.

 
 
My point was people have options and they can fine tune what they see to improve the visual reality. To me gray ribbon roads cutting through heavy urban areas that I would not know from the air simply destroys the illusion and wipes out too much autogen from the tiles.. for  someone else who knows the area from the air that may be different and the roads are required.
 

 
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NickN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-30-2011 at 6:08pm
 
 
 
Follow Up
 
My error
 
The minor roads are disabled when disabled in the UTX tool, I was seeing RR tracks that looked like minor roads in the rurals
 
None the less, the rest stands. All Anthony was trying to say is that too many of those roads cutting through urban/cities/towns can look unrealistic no matter how real world their layout because they give away the illusion..  
 
UTX roads may follow RW data, but FSX LC and layout system doesn't. To put one over the other is never going to work perfect visually
 
Its all give and take. Users must make their own decisions round what to enable and what to disable. Relying on me or anyone else to make that decision for you probably wont work. All I ever said was try running without roads and see how it looks.
 
 
and when it comes to rails, my initial comments were about rail yards, not the rails themselves however since we changed them in GEX Eu v2.0 and NA 1.95 the yards tend to blend in much better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-30-2011 at 6:31pm
 
 
 
I guess the best way to demo a point is to show it intsead of say it
 
 
These shots are with 100% autogen and Scenery Complexity (all shots)  rails and railyards are left enabled
 
I left the roads enabled in the UTX tool and used the FSX scenery library to get rid of all roads with one quick in-game change.
 
 
 
Paris France with spaghetti-bender roads
 
enabled 
 
 
disabled
 
 
 
 
 
enabled
 
 
disabled
 
 
 
 
 
 
I dont know about you, but to me UTX roads or FSX default roads for that matter destroys the realistic illusion in large urban areas and towns. Its the design of the sim itself regardless of if the roads are in the correct 'geo location' or not. The only way roads will follow textures/autogen correctly is with massive change to the scenery system where the dev has the resources, man power, and the time to define every sq km per tile in use, the tile position and the roads. and you are going to pay for it... through the nose to cover an entire country.
 
Cutting back on the roads in the UTX tool as Anthony pointed out can fill in more autogen by removing all but the large highways but to use that method when disabling anything other than the mnor roads requires the road encasements be disabled too or you end up with encasements and no roads.. and that reduces the realistic look since major highways should have easements. If the encasements were defined with each classification of road then that would work much better visually.
 
Base/blank concrete or veg tiles with a overlay wont work either.. although that may appear 'somewhat' cleaner, the fine details the base layer should provide will be completely missing using that method. It may work out in the boonies, but something that looks like "lego-land" wont cut it in a major city without a proper underlying layer of the city itself. That is especially true if the roads do not have proper detailed easements, curbs, markings and sidewalks following them too.
 
 
With resepct to UTX roads in USA, the issue is not that bad as long as minor urban residential road system is disabled because USA primary roads tend to follow a grid like the textures do  ie; LA in SoCal is not that bad...  where in Europe the Roman era design type road system turns it into a chopped up mess 
 
you get the same issue in major metro in the USA.. the road grid will not follow the textures without a full-detailed underlying layer addition
 
 
I think we all get it now..   turn them on or off as you may require Wink
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GSalden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-31-2011 at 3:38am

Here a screenshot of Paris with UTX Minor Urban Roads, Minor Rural Roads ansd Minor Urban Roas ( residential ) disabled.

That is how I have set up UTX to make a balance between UTX and GEX for all or Europe.
 
Btw : I Use ST Landclass
 
Gerard Salden
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rpowers46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-31-2011 at 1:41pm

For US UTX I disbled minor urban residential roads and urban encasements and it looks good to me so far.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-31-2011 at 2:29pm

Originally posted by rpowers46 rpowers46 wrote:


For US UTX I disbled minor urban residential roads and urban encasements and it looks good to me so far.

 
 

Which is the right way to run North America..  although the encasements should be there for major highways since they always have easements, they just need to be width-tuned
 
  The issue of turning off roads was geared more toward Europe than North America
 
 
-------------------------------
 
 
To answer everyone who may read this thread...

As I posted above, the primary problem is in how the roads interact with the tiles. The LC tends to land tiles in a 'grid' which in the USA the primary roads follow a grid and therefore are not as intrusive as they appear in Europe.

The Europe road system is not on a North America style grid and instead reflects (sort of) the Roman era road layout. Since the sim lands textures in a grid formation for the most part, any road system that would not have a defined grid pattern to it will exacerbate roads cutting across the tiles abruptly by 10 fold. That is why the suggestion of turning off roads, or, reducing the roads in use to major roadways is suggested for Europe.

As for static roads on the textures themselves, they must be there or:

a. People who do not use UTX or a product that adds roads would not see much of any roads outside of urban areas. And even though UTX may provide a extensive road system that does not mean that a veg or other landclass will place rural textures with structures within the road system, which leads to the next point....

b. Houses, buildings, structures both inside, but especially outside, of urban areas would appear to be sitting there with no roads leading to them at all which would look quite silly! LOL

The problem with static roads "stopping" at the edge of a texture is because the LC's and the textures are not made as one and predefined manually sq km by sq km a very expensive and extensive project for a continent. The same problem with that also displays places where textures may appear mixed up or scrambled, which is a LC layout issue since the GEX textures are designed to appear SEAMLESS with roads that will not stop abruptly and edges that will mate-up with a smooth appearance.. its where the LC cuts off or changes the texture classification that causes that issue, and, mask use by the system, its not a "GEX issue" and never has been. Its the default sim design.

That is the same reason why we can not produce 'large fields'.. the tiles are 1km and repeat. If we made large fields like you see on photoscenery the repeats would be dead obvious and not work visually, and, from altitude the 'tram', or, "repeat" effect to the horizon would be horrible like it is with the default FSX textures, but far worse. We would need to design, and pay for source data, a custom landclass to make that work, and, that would also mean we would need to add a LARGE number of new textures to the FSX database and define them in that custom LC. We are not in the landclass business.
 
 
Then there are the 'scale' problems..
 
A typical large tree in the sim is an average of 200ft tall in real world scale and houses/buildings can be 2-4-8x their real world counterpart. The scale is way off in the sim which is why I listed the UTX width changes to compensate visually, that and the fact that the narrower the roads/encasements the less autogen is removed.
 
It has nothing to do with performance, but visual quality and an estimate of the 'visual' scale of roads and their easements to the rest of the scenery based on the skewed scale problems in the sim.
 
I showed, using photoscenery, how the reduced width roads and other items such as ocean piers/bridges (UTX section, end of the FSX Tuning Thread: http://www.simforums.com/forums/setting-up-fsx-and-how-to-tune-it_topic29041.html ) I posted mate up with proper scale photoscenery/GEX here:
 
 
So as you can see, the deal is not about being 'exact with real world" but to 'compensate for the poorly designed default sim' so it all 'visually' works better together.
 
 
We dont make landclass, roads, buildings, custom models and airports. Our focus is to try and relieve the sim issues as much as we can, upgrade the default texture/autogen environment, offer the largest coverage area possible and keep the cost as low as possible for the work involved.
 
 
 
 
.... now back to my regularly scheduled vacation which is already in progress

 Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-31-2011 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by GSalden GSalden wrote:

Here a screenshot of Paris with UTX Minor Urban Roads, Minor Rural Roads ansd Minor Urban Roas ( residential ) disabled.

That is how I have set up UTX to make a balance between UTX and GEX for all or Europe.
 
Btw : I Use ST Landclass
 
 
 
I know that is a low light winter image but you are over-sharpening your converted images a bit too much.. (could also bee too much bloom mod too)
 
 it also seems the urban LC is a bit different in the distance if you are using UTX (see compare image below of UTX + ST)   are you sure you are patched with UTX properly?
 
 
none the less...
 
Try it without the roads, or, just enable the main highways
 
and by the way, enable the UTX railyards/RR too     as you can see we made those to 'closer' match the Google sat image for real world in GEX EU v2.0 so those are fairly spot-on now
 
this is a google early fall overhead image of the railyard shown in the image below
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kjng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-07-2011 at 6:32pm
To NickN,
as I personally dislike the big gray blocks appearing in the distance I asked myself if it's possible to use maybe a checkerboard texture for distant skyscrapers. (one pixel transparent, one pixel visible) this would blend skyscrapers more naturally into the environment by faking a reflection of the surrounding area. Or maybe a reflective texture in general, I don't know if that is possible though.
If this works out well it would also be a possible option to fade in autogen buildings in general.
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