OOM problems

Hey guys, I know this is an old topic, but I recently loaded all UT's available.  It is the latest version as far as I can tell.  Since loading UT, I have begun to receive OOM errors around highly detailed scenery.  Never had one OOM error until I installed UT, so I feel pretty confident that is the problem. 

First one was on approach to EDDF MegaScenery.  Yesterday, I tried PHNL-KMDW (FlyTampa) using PMDG 737BBJ.  (I tweaked a few things to make a "custom" BBJ.)  About 5 miles out from ILS 4R, OOM error.

I applied all the tweaks suggested by scenery solutions.  I have been reading about a USERVA tweak to boot.ini. What does that do?  I am rather incompetent when it comes to technical knowledge, so I don't want to get too in over my head. 

Does anyone have any ideas?  I really like UT.  It looks amazing compared to what I had before, but if I can't fly without OOM errors, it's rather pointless.  Just FYI, here is what I am running.

Core 2 Duo E6850, 2GB PC6400 Ram, Widows XP Home, NVidia 8800gt 512 MB, FS2004 w/ASv6 FSGlobal and UT

Hi

Your simplest solution may be to upgrade your OS to 64-bit and the RAM to 4GB. This should resolve the OOM issues. Windows XP Home is quite poor at addressing the virtual Address Space ie Memory - Pro is better.  
May experts say that WinXP 32-bit needs at least 3GB RAM to run optimally.
If you GOOGLE search for Microsoft Virtual Address Space Games you will see what the /3GB //USERVA switch does.
Regards

PeterH

Hi 737

I went from WinXP Pro to Vista 64 with no issues (clean install).  With Win7 soon to be released it may be worthwhile installing the Win7 64-bit OS RC (Release Candidate) which is "FREE" at the moment.  Microsoft have several "guides" on how to install win 7 on their updates site.  I don't foresee any issues as your mobo is compatible with 64-bit OS's (and for Win7 you should be able to check on the Windows 7 upgrade site): http://www.microsoft.com/windows/compatibility/Details.aspx?type=Hardware&p=ASUS%20P5N-E%20SLI%20-%20motherboard%20-%20ATX%20-%20nForce%20650i%20SLI&v=ASUStek&uid=&pf=3&pi=0&c=Graphics%20Cards%20%26%20Components&sc=Other%20Components&os=64-bit

Regards

PeterH

Nick, your article is outstanding!  You are addressing FSX in the article.  Stupid question, but is everything applicable to FS9?

After reading everything I can get my hands on, I still have a questiion:  Will the USERVA edit have any affect on my system, as I only have 2GB of installed RAM?  Should I purchase more RAM to a total of 4GB to make the edit effective?

Nick, I am running FS9, so my questions pertain exclusivley to FS9.

I can't see the image explaining the process for fs9.  I just have a giant white box on my screen.

you should be able to see it now

Remember to be sure to save the original FS9.exe file to a safe place first.. some system dont like that edit and may refuse to launch FS9 

 you need to be able to restore if you come across a problem after editing so save the original

With a 32bit system, and, ASSUMING the OOM is not related to the page file being accessed and too small, and, ASSUMING the issue is not a addon (its not UT I know that) then the 3GB switch with USERVA 2560 should be tested.. if OOM still shows, drop USERVA in lots of 64 (requires reboot of Windows) till you get down to about 2048.. once you hit that mark you will know the issue is either a addon or your system simply not playing well with something.

 You do not need that edit if it does not help your situation and it should be removed

The system WILL IN FACT use 4GB

You are reading more internet myth

The task manager will not show it due to how a 32bit OS is designed, however, you will in fact have access to and will use up to 4GB

I said.. the SYSTEM will use the 4GB.. I did not say applications would have that amount available to them 100% however the combination of the system and the application does in fact use the entire 4GB as the over and above will be shared

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778.aspx#physical_memory_limits_windows_xp

 what does it say?

4GB!

On top of that.. I can tell you that MB companies started putting that notice in their manuals to circumvent a MASSIVE ONSLOT of customer service calls about how their memory was not showing up .. trust me, you WILL have 4GB in use 

 From what you posted above:

 Microsoft Windows 32-bit version operating systems. <---- that part is misleading!

 what does MS say?

4GB!

 Your system will make full use of it all

Its not garbage... what they say is true (except they ALL stretch that with the MS 32 bit OS part) If you read it right, what they are telling you is the over and above is shared but it is ALL USED

What they do not post is that the 32bit memory monitor will not register its use 100%

Instead they insinuate (in order to get rid of the service calls) what you see is what you get..

the true amount to the application varies system to system based on your installed hardware but the 32bit Windows OS is dealing with all 4

They all do it.. not just Asus..  its standard now in the industry. They domt want a bunch of service calls from people complaing they are OOM'ing with their motherboards so they tell you what they do to reduce their liability in the matter. What they say is true but how they say it is very slick

and you can install 4GB and make use of it

But a 64bit OS is really the best way to go regardless

A OOM can be from adding something more to a system that throws you over the top. Assuming the addons are made correctly then just using the addon can thow a system over... and if you add in a TWEAK that is not well adjusted for your system then that can cause it too. Case in point, someone at AVSIM was OOM on a 64bit OS! That was because of a; FSX tweaks they did which were over the top b; Improper hardware setup

A 64bit OS will only allow a 32bit application to HAVE 4GB if that application is >2GB aware SET. Only a 64bit APPLICATION can have >4GB in a 64bit OS. Therefore when people start adding tweaks like excessive bufferpools and extending the scenery radius they can in fact OOM even on a 64bit OS.

OOM can be for MANY reasons and although a mal-formed addon is very high on that list, it can also be from simply running too many things the wrong way.

 I do not know about tweak posted elsewhere as I have not read them. I have my own method for dealing with FSX which is what I posted in the link I provided. It also includes tips for UTX performance at the bottom of that list

more than likely adding the memory, making sure the page file is set correctly, and, setting the 3GB USERVA value will do the trick

If it has stopped OOM now and you added the XP boot.ini edit that is most likely a sign you will be fine

But as I posted in my tuning thread.. OOMs in a 32bit OS can also be from the motherboard and how well the manufacture designed it for memory management too. Or, it can be from a combination of hardware and elements such as system PTE allocation from the video drivers or other devices.

There is MUCH MUCH more to OOM than one target reason.

So all you can do is try it and see if it works.. however, do not assume a addon is not made right as that is possible and there could be an undiscovered bug in a file but more often than not the issue is hardware related.

1. yes it works fine.. restrictions you may be thinking of are in # of CPU slugs

2. no difference

3. no

Well, here's the update:

I have followed all instructions to the letter, and I am now running 4GB RAM.  I am still getting OOM errors and now even an occasional crash to the desktop with no error message at all. 

The next step is to adjust the USERVA switch down from 2560 in blocks of 64 and see what happens, but I am a little pessimistic at this point.   

Nick, I know you said UT is not the problem, but at this point I have eliminated every other possible cause.  In 18 months, I never had a single OOM or crash to the desktop using all types of commercial addon scenery, Level-D 767, and PMDG 747/737.  I then bought GE Pro and UT and installed them.  I deleted GE Pro because I didn't really like it and kept UT.  Since then, the OOM problem has persisted.   

Anyway, if OOM's and crashes to the desktop persist, the only logical step I can think of is to disable UT in the scenery library and fly without it.  If OOM's disappear, then we've found the issue, and the next step will be to install a 64 bit version of XP to see if that works.  Of course this means complete reinstallation of FS and all my addons!   D'oh!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeff, with all due respect, perhaps if you read the entire thread, you will understand what I am talking about in the previous post to which you responded.  UT is most likely the cause of MY problem.  I suspect that if I ran UT in FS9 with no addon scenery, no addon aircraft, and no Active Sky then I would have no problems at all.  But that is not acceptable to me.

BTW, your conclusion that "if Ultimate Terrain was the cause, then everyone who ran the product would get OOMs" is nonsense.  Imagine a person gets lung cancer from smoking cigarettes.  I doubt you would then say, "if smoking cigarettes caused lung cancer, then everyone who smokes would get lung cancer. They do not." 

As you imply, EVERY system and user of FS9 has a different configuration and different hardware, so addons like UT will run differently depending on the system.  Mine just happens to be one that can't handle my taste for great addons and high levels of detail and realism.

Anyway I look at it, the bottom line seems clear:  UT is the straw that breaks the camel's back on my system.   The question at this point isn't whether UT is the cause.  The question is how to keep my FS9 settings exactly the same and still run UT free of OOM's.  The way things are now, I can't do that.  I love UT, I believe it is an outstanding product, and want to keep it.   (Do I want to have my cake and eat it too?  Absolutely! )

So as I said earlier, I will try adjusting the USERVA # to see if we can get it working right.  But if that fails, based on Nick's expert advice, I feel like XP 64bit is the logical next step.  The thought of reinstalling eveything on my computer makes me queasy! Jeff, after reading the entire thread, do you have any thoughts on whether I should spend the time/effort to install Xp 64bit?

1. This issue isn't UTX. In the case where all addons are confirmed its a combination of all installed software overruning the address space with a 32bit OS in use, period

2. The motherboard manufactures post the use of a 64bit OS with >2GB in order to circumvent exactly what happened in this thread.. they dont want to deal with users who do not understand the issue and at one time blamed the motherboard manufactures for their OOM errors in the early days. A motherboard manufacture will tell a user to Read The Friendly Manual, install a 64bit OS and wash their hands of it past that.

3. If Jeff or Allen tell you its not UTX, you can take that to the bank

4. In this day and age with software memory demands and PCIe video memory amounts, a 64bit OS is no longer a fad.. it's practically a requirement

As my post stated in the tuning thread.. drop the USERVA in lots of 64 and retest. Once you hit 2048 the issue is this motherboard/system/installed software will not play nice with address space, period, and the user must move to a 64bit OS 

737BBJ wrote: I have tested FS9 with UT active and with UT disabled.  With UT, I get OOM's, without UT, I get no OOM's.  You can take THAT to the bank.

No one said you didnt.. you need a 64bit OS, you can take that to the bank

737BBJ wrote: The above notwithstanding, I find it unacceptable to run FS9 without UT.  What can I say, I'm spoiled by the quality of the scenery!

Then you have now confirmed again... you need a 64bit OS

You have not stirred up a hornets nest.. When someone like myself who has PhD's in both EE and physics and who is qualified to design/spec hardware for the military and NASA (and did before he retired) in which general public motherboard technology is a toy tells a user what the problem is and they still question it.. its annoying as hell to say the least

I can only imagine how the designer of the software who is also quite qualifed to make such calls may feel.

Look at it from my point of view, or anyone who is highly trained technically.

UT does not cause OOMs, period

A user who overruns their system causes OOMs and if they wish to run their sim and system a certain way, then they need the right TOOLS to accomplish the job.. a 64bit OS

A better much more simplistic analogy that gets right to the core of this problem would be a user in ignorance is trying to use a strait blade screwdriver to tighten a Phillips head screw and then raise a stink with the screw manufacture their screws must be defective because you can only get so far and the head strips out. .. and then uses cigarettes and lung cancer as an analogy to their point of view when the manufacture explains the problem and tells them point blank,.. the screws are not the issue, change the screwdriver.

 PLEASE!

Tell me you wouldn't be annoyed if you were the screw manufacture!  LOL!!

The right tool for the right job is the issue here.  

If you ask me arrogance and pomposity is correct especially when a users does not understand what they are doing.. or talking about 

I’ll leave it at that