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Topic ClosedSeeking advice regarding Z490 build

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Fly happy View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 11:38am
BIOS updated to 0707.

AUTO settings are now:

CPU VCCIO Voltage:              1.312V (Previously 1.408V)
CPU System Agent Voltage:   1.296V           (Previously (1.504V)

This looks far more reasonable. Preceeding with memtest now.

Hans

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 12:16pm
I would consider those maxed out and still need a tune at some point but yes the readout makes more sense now. 

Out of curiosity, what was the original BIOS version out of the box. Reason I ask is I have come across some suggestions that in the past some or several displayed value were not accurate due to programming flubs on many different boards. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 12:20pm
Yeah I also think the voltages are still on the high side, but my gut felt a bit better seing they drop after the BIOS update and I guess it's worth something.

I took a picture of the screen before updating, and the factory BIOS was 0222.

So far one pass on the first stick without errors.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 12:25pm
I'll check and see if I can find out anything on that. I do not think those original displayed voltages were what the system was actually running and it was a programming display flub.

1.3v is the Intel specification for both. I put a personal limit of 1.25 on both. Typically VCCIO can live in the 1.0-1.1 range and VCCSA in the 1.12-1.2 range all depending on the individual system and clock. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 12:41pm
Thanks. Yesterday I took some time to look through the BIOS and there is a list of  "memory presets". In that menu I found a preset for a 4x8GB 4000 MHz CL16 Samsung B-die which I tried without booting issues. When going through the timings, I saw the subtimings were manually tuned lower than for my AUTO settings for the 4000 CL15 kit. The CAS latency was 16 though which might explain some of it. But still interesting. And the IO and SA voltages were manual. I need to check the manual settings on those voltages when I get back to the BIOS.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 12:49pm
Those 'presets' are for testing and possibly running memory performance tuning. I wouldn't mess with those till after everything else is established, including a clock. If a system is going to be clocked, memory tuning is the last step after all else is established.

The reason is in order to clock there should be a reasonable window of stability with the memory to work with. High tuning memory and then trying to clock can make the process frustrating. If it is possible to trim memory, that should be considered a perk only. 

If a system is not going to be clocked or will not be highly clocked, then working with the presets early on is OK, but just like any other change like that, you must torture test that change just like any other CPU clock change, so best to leave that system alone till later. 


 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 12:55pm
Yeah got it. I was just "having fun looking around" LOL
Hans

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 1:00pm
And..  since you are running 1.5v DRAM already, anything that stresses those sticks is going to raise the temp of the sticks. That is something you can look at in HW Monitor later as loads are being applied. It is possible a RAM module fan may need to be deployed if those temps are up there. 

DDR4 does run hotter than memory of the past. I can see temps of up to 48-50c under extreme stress @ 1.45v. I do not see a need for a fan for that but if it was higher than that I would probably opt for one. 

Looking around is fun! LOL



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 1:04pm
Don't you recon the 200 mm side fan would provide enough airflow over the sticks?
Hans

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 1:12pm
My memory typically runs 36-40c normally, under a stress load up to 50. If it was running in the 40's normally and up into the 50's under load then I would opt for a load controlled module fan.

I have huge side door fan too. Just like the NVMe drive that is buried at the bottom of my board and partially behind a audio DAC card, it was running in the 60's under benchmark load and required a small 2.5" pancake fan attached with double side 3m tape which keeps is 48c max under stress and 36c when not stressed. It doesn't take much air. A little does a lot.

The memory modules may need a little help that way too. The large fan may get the air in, but it does not focus the air in specific locations where it may be needed. 

When you get the software installed for your NVMe that is one the items you will need to check with the tower door closed. 3 hard benchmark runs in the software and observe the temp of the drive. If it is hitting above 60c it should have focused air over the heatsink on the board. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 1:41pm
Got it. Remember when we talked about the 120 mm side fan behind the CPU backplate?
In case of the Sandy-Bridge E there is no back plate but carrying on.
 
Just for fun, I am doing a quick and dirty test checking the benefits of it on my Sandy-Bridge E rig. Using OCCT Large Data Set, it drops the VRM temperatures of about 7-8C, and that's with XMP setting and HT off, CPU at 3800 MHz. So basically stock turbo speed.

It does nothing to CPU core temp as far as I can tell.
When disconnected during the test and then reconnecting the fan, the VRM temps slowly drop.
Hans

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 1:48pm
So the fan is assisting in getting some focused air to the trouble area even though it does nothing for the CPU itself. If you could target the VRM bank specifically it would most likely work better even with a smaller fan.


EDIT: The Haswell Sabertooth board I ran had the VRM in a duct along with other components that was supported with two 1 inch fans at each end so air was channeled through that system. Was a very well designed board. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2020 at 2:09pm
Yup, I'll keep you posted what it brings to the table with the Hero.
Anyways stick 1 passed memtest so tomorrow I'll continue with stick 2.
Basically, there's gonna be one stick per day going through memtest here LOL
But on friday I have some time off and then I will probably be done with memtest.
Hans

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2020 at 2:41am
You were looking at flubbed readouts on that BIOS. I kind of figured that when I saw it which is why I said to ignore. If that board was actually running 1.5 on SA it would have been a matter of minutes before the CPU gave up the ghost and it would be all over the net that board was killing CPU's. 

They corrected the readout flub in the BIOS update so no worries about what you saw initially. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2020 at 2:47am
Okay makes sense. Something else changed too with the BIOS update. There's a prediction of the CPU ability called "SP". There is also one for the cooler.

In the factory BIOS it read over 100 for the CPU, then after the update it dropped to 63.
I thought I had a golden chip with that 100+ reading, now I'm back down to earth seeing 63 LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2020 at 4:30am
Forget that nonsense..  it will be disabled at some point. LOL

Continue your memtest86 journey. Once you know each stick is good and then the entire rack is stable with Memtest86, it's onward and upward from there. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2020 at 12:26pm
I tuned these and put stick 2 through memtest with no errors.

CPU VCCIO Voltage:              1.25V  (Reads 1.264V)
CPU System Agent Voltage:   1.25V            (Reads (1.248V)

Now running stick 3 with the same settings.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2020 at 1:36pm
Sounds good to me!

It would have been fine at default for this and a few more stages. Just don't clock at anything above those 2 Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 11:12am
All sticks passed through memtest separately.

But I can't get all four through memtest at 4000 MHz without errors.

With 1.25V on both CPU VCCIO and SA I got 47 errors on Test 6 [Block move, 64 moves] and 1 error on Test 9 [Modulo 20, Random pattern] so I aborted memtest on pass 3.

Then I tuned SA to 1.3V and just ran test 6 one pass, with about 50 errors.

Then I tuned CPU VCCIO to 1.3V with keeping SA at 1.3V and ran just Test 6 with 104 errors.

Then I lowered the frequency to 3600 MHz and tuned both CPU VCCIO and SA back down to 1.25V each and it seems to work for now. It's currently on the 2nd pass at Test 13 [Hammer Test] with no errors so far.

Before I lowered the frequency to 3600 MHz I set CPU VCCIO and SA to AUTO to see what the board would do. It set:

CPU VCCIO Voltage:              1.312V 
CPU System Agent Voltage:   1.392V   

Apperantly, with four sticks, SA increased from 1.296 to 1.392 while VCCIO remains the same as with one stick.
Hans

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 1:30pm
We know the individual sticks are ok so running all 4 stable at rated speed is not going so well. That stinks. 

At this point reducing the speed is an option and since the timing on the memory is low to begin with it should not have much affect on the performance but it would still be nice to find out why. The other option would be to manually raise the CL timing to 16 from 15, leave the speed @ 4000 to see where that sits. 

As long as you know the sticks are stable you could continue on to load Windows. 

With 32GB it may be tough to run 4000 on this CPU and chipset at tight timing and get a clock going too and because of the amount of memory the system may need to run a higher SA than would typically be seen. 

I do not have the hardware to work with myself so my knowledge of the behavior is limited to reading trial and error reports and reviewing what I can. 

Once Windows is installed and since there is a issue running default speed it would probably be a good idea to run HCi Memtest Pro in Windows for at least 500% as a backup to be sure what is being run is indeed stable


Is there another XMP profile you can choose from in the BIOS or only one? If there is more than one is the 2nd a lower speed and what is the timing for that if it is available?

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 1:50pm
I'm gonna do more tests here with 4000 CL16 and possibly 3800 CL15 while keeping both CPU VCCIO and SA at 1.25V. 3600 CL15 seems stable, running test 13 on the 3rd pass now without errors.

And there is a 2nd XMP profile with some of the secondary timings set manually instead of AUTO as the XMP 1 profile set them. As far as I can remember, those were a bit tighter than what XMP 1 set them at AUTO. 

XMP 1 is the profile that ASUS uses to optimize the XMP profile, while XMP 2 loads the complete default XMP profile, and that's when I noticed some of the subtimings were set manually while the primary timings were the same manual inputs. The only voltage set by either of the two profiles was DRAM Voltage (1.5V).

Command rate is AUTO on both profiles so I don't know what is used in memtest. 
Maybe I should set it to 2N to make sure what is actually used.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 2:02pm
I would think 2N would be the XMP. It is rare to see a 1N command rate at high speed but if you question it then setting to 2N manually is fine. 

So there was no speed change between XMP1 and XMP2, just additional timing settings made.

At 3600 it may (or may not) be possible to lower the DRAM voltage to 1.45 but what ever trimming and tuning you do of course must be tested. It may not be a bad idea to establish a few different options for testing later. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 2:41pm
I would suggest that if you find DDR4 3600 c15-16-16 passes, you may want to use that as your stable base to start with. Of course it should be verified after Windows is installed but at least you have a stable starting point that can be used to allow you to continue installing and then resume the search for the sweet spot as you can. With Windows installed it will allow you to test changes in Windows using HCi Memtest Pro too.


If you find C16-16-16 @ 4000 stable there is nothing wrong with that at all. I don't know how it will hold up in a clock but it is still smoking fast for 4000 and 32GB of memory. Even C16-17-17 would be OK too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 4:14pm
There is something you should be very aware of which is why I suggested the DDR4 3600 spot to start..   just because you pass Memtest86+ with all 4 sticks @ 4000 <timing>, does not mean you will pass HCi Memtest Pro in Windows. 

The rack setup may test fine in DOS and then blow out somewhere in the Windows HCi test. This is far more a possibility when running higher speed/low latency and although Memtest86+ is the way to define a defective memory stick, if a system won't run the default manufacture XMP rack without 86+ errors, it is usually best to err on the side of caution with a relaxed tested setup until Windows is installed and reverify in HCi Memtest. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 4:23pm
3600 CL15 passed with no errors after more then ten hours (three passes).
It takes an incredible amount of time with four sticks.

I'm gonna leave 4000 CL16 running on memtest through the night.
It passed test 6 now, where 4000 CL15 got into serious trouble.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 4:35pm
Well at least you have a good stable start point tested if in doubt.

It is looking like the 10/Z4x combination with 32GB is memory may have a bit of a time getting a stable high clock going at high speed..  lets see what happens @ 16-16-16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 4:38pm
There's one of the primary timings I can't see in BIOS.
There should be four of them, as in 16 16 16 36. I can only see three.
I have set them to 16 16 36. So the only one changed from the XMP profile is CL, from 15 to 16.
I'm gonna check tomorrow which one is "hidden". 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 4:49pm
Probably because they want the DRAM RAS# to CAS# Delay (tRCD) and the RAS# to Precharge (tRP) always set the same so when you set DRAM RAS# to CAS# Delay it sets them both equally.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2020 at 11:55pm
Oh, is it important to keep those two the same or why doesn't Asus give us manual control of, in this case tRP?
And you're right, tRP is hidden in the BIOS so I assume it is 16 as tRDC is 16.

4000 16-16-16-36 2N passed memtest without errors in just over four hours. 

With 3600 15-16-16-36, (unknown command rate) I first ran test 6 separately and then when it passed it, I ticked all the other tests and set the number of passes to three. And then it took over ten hours to complete. So my conclusion,  and it may be false again, is that I should reboot between memtest runs?

This morning I tried 3800 15-16-16-36 2N and it failed with errors in test 6.

So to sum it up I have two successful pass profiles so far with:
DRAM Voltage 1.5V
CPU VCCIO 1.25V
CPU System Agent 1.25V

3600 15-16-16-36 (unknown command rate)
4000 16-16-16-36 2N


Hans

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2020 at 2:08am
With DDR4 they are both the same. Unlike DDR3, I do not think I have ever seen DDR4 memory where those 2 were different values. 

Ok so it appears, for right now at least, you have a system that is a bit fussy with C15 above 3600. That doesn't mean eventually it won't run the default timing with a CPU voltage input of some type but for right now you know the sticks do not test defective and you found 2 rack runs that appear to be safe to work with.

So at this point you can select one or the other for speed/timing and begin the Windows and driver load process. It reads to me either one would be OK to start working with. I am sure the command rate is 2N for the unknown 3600 run as I have never seen 1N above a certain DRAM speed without being forced with a lot of voltage. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2020 at 2:19am
Since there is a little fussy going on with the memory, if you really want to err on the side of caution when loading the drive, you could set to 3600 C16-16-16 2N and from what I have seen that should be just ducky to get started with the system load. 


After everything is loaded then move to resetting the speed/timing and do some Windows testing to see where it is in that memory test software. During that process I will give you some settings to look at and verify and then we can see if that C15-16-16 4000 will come back to life.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2020 at 2:42am
I'm putting 3600 15-16-16-36 2N @ DRAM Voltage 1.45V through memtest now.
One pass complete without errors.

But because my tested profiles are so close to failed profiles, would it make sense when installing Windows to use the optimized defaults? Or lower the speed of the 3600 MHz profile to like 3000 MHz? 

For piece of mind, I can put the optimized defaults profile through memtest too.
It's probably gonna be 2133 CL15.

Then after everything is installed, I can use one of the performance profiles I know have passed memtest and take it from there. Just a thought. 

OOPS Edit: Just saw your post above. You were kinda suggesting this too but in a different way, changing the timings instead of dropping the speed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2020 at 2:55am
If you feel more comfortable going the optimized defaults route, that's fine. Just make sure those modules test solid in the rack with the optimized defaults first. 

I have a feeling you are going to be running 1.5v for anything XMP under any kind of real load due to the 32GB full rack so if you want to spend the time looking around at it now that's OK but I really think based on what I have read thus far you would be fine to roll with 3600 16-16-16 @ 1.5v 

At this point enough discovery has been made to move forward and since there will be some testing and tuning going on after the system disk load the time will be spent there instead of now however if you prefer to continue checking and running through some things, have at it. Big smile

I really do not think it would be wise to run 1.45 during a system load even if it does pass simply because of what the manufacture outlines. That could be something to work with later which is where it will be critical to test anyway. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2020 at 3:01am
If you pass 3600 15-16-16 1.5 and then move CL up to 16 from 15, believe me..  its stable

Raising CL makes a huge change in the stability over anything else and if it passed 4000 @ 16-16-16 then 400Mhz lower will be even more stable.

That is why I said, at 3600 16-16-16 1.5v I think it will be just ducky. LOL


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2020 at 3:20am
I like the sound of that LOL

Being me I know I have to check stuff, and I also need to come to a conclusion that it's good enough, let's move on and so on and so forth. Or as you pointed out "enough discovery has been made" which was kinda funny to me because I know I can stay in places for far too long LOL.  Even if you didn't mean it exactly like that the expression made me smile LOL  I do think it's fun though, and it builds experience.

Even if 3600 15-16-16-36 2N @ DRAM 1.45V passes memtest, I'm gonna take your advice and bump the voltage to 1.5V and use 3600 16-16-16-36 2N for the Windows installation. I don't think I'll  bother with the optimized defaults. 
Hans

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2020 at 3:30am
Hey like I said, discover away! LOL 



Its just that you will be doing all this again, and probably again... and perhaps again too as this unfolds, so as long as we know you are good to move forward now then we will get to bottom of the rest of it after a secure load on the disk and all the mundane loading/setup is complete.





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2020 at 2:37pm
Let me add a little FYI here..    That Aura lighting junk on the motherboard as well as the Asus app Armoury crate nonsense, and, and lighting software from Asus or Gskill, don't install any of that junk. 


If it is there:

ONBOARD DEVICE CONFIGURATION - LED CONTROL
When system is in working state [Aura Off]
Q-Code LED Function [POST Code Only]


TOOLS MENU
Download & Install ARMOURY CRATE app [Disabled]


That will save you anywhere from 5-15% from garbage chewing on your CPU all the time..   The iCUe software is fine.


And watch out with the audio drivers..  there may be a something they try to install that runs disco lighting while music and games are playing. 

Disco Duck! <QUACK> LOLLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2020 at 4:55pm
I got Windows installed and updated. Haven't noticed any disco lights yet LOLalthough I believe there was some audio app which was installed without my involvement a good while after I had finished installing Windows. I'm not sure if it was related to the audio driver installation because of the time it took for that app to get installed. We'll see what happens once some music plays...

And sure, I turned off Aura and disabled armoury crate.

Anyway, 3600 15-16-16-36 2N @ DRAM 1.45V passed memtest without errors.
But the profile I use now is 3600 16-16-16-36 2N @ DRAM 1.5V as previously mentioned. 

Tomorrow I'll look into the software needed for your outline. And I need to study how to use the iCue software for the cooler.
Hans

W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2020 at 5:55pm
If you turned it off in the BIOS that will probably do the trick. Just watch out for any blinky light software nonsense that will run constantly in the background. LOL


Don't do any clocking at this point..  If you want to go over the document to get your head around the approach and get a feel for what I am doing with the 9700K/z3x board that's fine. There are definitely differences with the 10 series z4x systems and I am still crunching information without a board in front of me..  which I don't like but...  

Part of what I wrote will be deployed, specifically finding the tower watt load limit and applying that in the BIOS however the LLC and Additional Turbo Core voltage to do it as outlined is perfect for the 9700 z3's but it rolling high for the z4's due to changes in the platform and coding...  But do get a good read.

Also, it is possible HW Monitor x64 will not read the CPU POWERS (watts) on the z4x board. If that is the case then switching over to HWInfo64 will be required. Shame because HW Monitor is very simplistic and the layout is great for the job where HWInfo64 can be a bit of a pain to setup simply.



You still do not have a video card, correct?  Are you using the processor video output right now?

That can make a difference here.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-06-2020 at 3:11am
Yeah, I'm using the processor graphics since the 3000-series isn't available yet, but I have a perfectly fine spare GTX 570 from my old build I could use for now.  

I'm gonna have a good read of the outline, check out the software and so on.

Hans

W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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