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NickN 
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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 Posted: September-06-2020 at 4:28am |
 Fly happy wrote:
Yeah, I'm using the processor graphics since the 3000-series isn't available yet, but I have a perfectly fine spare GTX 570 from my old build I could use for now.
I'm gonna have a good read of the outline, check out the software and so on.
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A system can not be clocked properly until the hardware, or, at least the same class of hardware is installed in it.
A 500 series video card is not PCIe3. The CPU graphic system is placing stress in a different location.
It is possible to work out a good portion of a clock with a video card in the system that may not be to spec (such as a 5 series card) and the result may carry over however where you are right now is not a good place to start clocking. Working on getting the memory up to speed is different however you must also recognize that the CPU display system is tapping the system memory too.
Do read.. it's a good one and if things work out the way I think they may, the difference between the 9700 and the 10 series will be the core voltage and the + offset as well as how the cache is run. Still have some home work to do
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 5:18am |
I am trying to standardize a clocking outline between two completely different platforms and processors. Honestly, I should have kept my mouth shut but since I have stepped in it, I'll do the best I can to finish the job. 
There are many ways to clock a processor and with the these new systems and the desire for 32GB comes a lot of variables. My approach to clocking has always been longevity vs performance.
I will never post anything that is dangerous however I am challenged right now after stepping into it to try and get everyone in the right place.
Goes back to bringing everyone home safely from orbit 35-39 years ago, the crew wake-up song on reentry burn day  (they didn't broadcast that stuff back then)
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 5:42am |
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It's allright. We'll make it work some way or the other. I'll test anything you ask for and report back. And with 32 GB there must be some sacrifice made from how it was done before. I think we can already see that. And I agree on longevity vs performance.
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 6:54am |
We will get it done my friend
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:55am |
I've installed HWINFO v6.30 because it appears HWmonitor doesn't support Comet Lake unless you buy the PRO version. I've hidden alot of stuff that I think is unnecessary but kept some, including the voltages, CPU core temp and CPU Package Power.
The CPU Package Power sensor is located under CPU [#0] Intel Core i9-10900K: Enhanced Just idling it varies between 1.8W and 31W as it stands now.
There is also a sensor called "CPU Power" which I assume it's not the correct one. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's located under ASUS EC: ASUS System Product Name. Idling it varies between 0.7W and 51W.
Did three benchmark runs with the Magician software and the max drive temperature was 60C. When idling it stands at 36C.
Sequential Read: 3500 MB/s Write 3300 MB/s
Random (IOPS) Read 347000 Write 278000
During that test I observed CPU VCCIO increase momentarily to 1.28V from the idle value of 1.264V while SA appeared to remain the same (1.248V).
Some of the cores increased the frequency to 5 GHz and max Vcore was about 1.31V. I still have the default CPU settings in the BIOS, so HT is on and has always been on in the passed too so you know.
The only settings I have changed are those involved when running memtest, meaning XMP, Dram Voltage, CPU VCCIO and SA, and the timings.
And of course the Aura and Armoury Crate nonsense, plus I looked at the M.2 slot and set it to PCI instead of Auto which probably should have worked anyway. And oh, under Boot, I believe it was a Secure Boot setting that I changed the OS Type from legacy to Windows UEFI mode, before I installed Windows.
I'm using Q-fan in BIOS with a manual curve to control the case fans. They reach their max speed at a CPU temperature of 70C as it stands now.
In the Corsair iCUE software the radiator fans use a manual curve with a fixed speed of 20% up to 26C and 100% at 39C and the pump has a fixed speed from the Balanced profile, spinning at about 2300 RPM. The Quiet profile runs the pump speed on the H150i RGB PRO XT at about 1950 RPM and the Extreme profile at 2640, according to the software readings.
So there's a difference between the XT and the earlier H150i Pro.
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 9:39am |
Ok good stuff
forget VCCIO/VCCSA for now
just set balanced for the water pump regardless of the differences
The BIOS fan stuff is good but what matters is the Windows software settings for fans be it Asus or iCUe
Asus monitor software in the past has typically been off by 10c compared to any other monitor software but you have to confirm that for your system and how fans are set.
Your drive temp at idle is great but under load may be a problem @ 60c that is the limit I personally place on any solid state device for active cooling so I would say it needs a little help. You can opt to do that, or not. between 36 and 60 is a good difference. I run 36 to 48.
Making a change there is up to you
I posted earlier I used a small/flat 2.5 inch pancake fan attached with 3M double sided tape on top of the metal strip heatsink.. works a charm.
As for iCue, you can set a profile for the fan yourself like I did, you may have a little learning curve there to figure that out.
This reads like you still got some homework to do don't I know it!
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 10:07am |
I'll get the drive temperature sorted once I have a video card installed so I can see what clearance I have to play with. Maybe that isn't an issue but who knows. And oh, the Hero comes with a 40 mm fan (optional for the VRM) I could potentially use for the drive unless I will have to use it for the VRM.
Once load tests start I will observe how the BIOS Q-fan setting for the case fans work, and if I found it lacks precision I'll go ahead and install AI Suite 3 and control the fans with the Fan Xpert 4 software.
In the iCUE software I have already made a manual profile for the radiator fans. The radiator fans use a manual curve with a fixed speed of 20% up to 26C and 100% at 39C. And the temperature sensor is "H150i RGB PRO XT Temp".
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 10:15am |
you have some homework to do
take some time and work it out.
the BIOS isn't important on fans unless you want to go there, that is overridden on Windows boot
AISuite fan system is what is required for Windows boot fan control
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 10:20am |
Oh
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 10:21am |
HOMEWORK! have it on my desk by Thursday
The dog ate it? no worries
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 10:23am |
Yes sir
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 10:25am |
Just don't install anything from the AI suite installer you don't need
I use for fan control, that's it
If you never have, then you got some work to do
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 10:33am |
I went into the BIOS and entered Q-fan and changed my manual curves to full speed and the fans spin in full speed in Windows so it seems nothing is overridden 
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 10:45am |
Use the BIOS if you want to and that is what you want to use
What I am trying to explain is the Fan Xpert if that is what it is still called in the Asus software will allow you access to every fan in the system and allow you to set a thermal fan curve for each one of them.
Heck it will even allow you to identify their positions in the tower and custom label.
I use the CPU temp alone for all fan movement. The software looks at difference motherboard temp sensors for fan control and blends them. I override/reset for CPU temp only.
My tower is dead silent unless I am horsing on it.
If you do not want to deal with that, then do what you know from the past.
There is a learning curve. I do it to assure my fans respond to the CPU temp regardless of any BIOS settings and the accuracy of it is spot on, although Asus tend to run the CPU temp sensor 10c lower so my fans are set to run 100% when the CPU temp in their software hits 70c
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 11:10am |
It may very well come to installing Fan Expert 4 but I thought I would show you how Q-fan looks like in the BIOS. It also allows you to control each fan individually. I can't find which sensor it uses though so I would assume it's the CPU temperature.
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 11:15am |
I was busting your chops Han's
I know how the BIOS works, I prefer to have total individual fan control in Windows from every fan position which does require some manual input.
If you have a methodology you have worked out over time that functions for you in clocking and you have observed it works well,... then that is ducky.. stick with what you know
If you have never cooked one before a good ribeye is hard to do!
in the states that means... funny.. poke, poke poke
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 11:32am |
As long as you know your fans are working under a load, that is all that matters.
but do get that drive temp looked at. if you do not have a video card installed yet that drive temp may go higher after, so I would look at addressing than now.
60c is the max for me to consider active cooling for any solid state device.
You can make a different call, some think those drives are fine up through 70c
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 11:41am |
Okay
My methodology is far from established Just trying out what may work without adding too much complexity into it 
Well then I guess you have the Q-fan or equivalent option on your board as well. So when you load Windows, whatever is set in Q-fan in BIOS is overridden by the AI Suite app?
And yeah, I'll look into the drive cooling.
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 11:50am |
Correct.. everything is overridden from the BIOS
I can pinpoint each fan position and control each fan speed based on temp sensors
I thought you might like that being as obsessive/compulsive as you appear (just kidding!!!!!! )
Jokes aside... Stick with what you know unless you want to dive into something new
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 11:53am |
If you only knew how right you are
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 12:15pm |
Ok so... I have helped you here right?
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 12:48pm |
60c is at the very edge for me. My NVMe was hitting 65-69c under stress load which is why I applied the small fan. It doesn't take much to to focus the air in the right place and drop the temp but mine was partially buried behind a audio DAC PCIe card and next to a chipset component.
Many may say, that is ridiculous. great up through 70c
This article was designed to sell crap but the reasoning is correct:
Its on the same order as the VRM
solid state, the cooler.. the longer stable life,.. you know that
If it does not exceed 60c under stress test after the vid card installation, it should be fine
I just really, really like 36-48c under all stress load max
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 1:16pm |
Heh, when it comes to computers I know how to enjoy what they can offer. I don't know much what makes them do what they do, though
I have a story from my childhood. Me and my best buddy were into games and flight simulation. So when I was there we were entertaining ourselves with games and simulators.
But after I had left he went back to the computer and started programming, and eventually after university he ended up working for one of the major game developers, while I am still doing what I always have been doing, using the hardware and software (software he actually was part of creating) for entertainment purposes
The difference between then and now is that I enjoy the build and the tuning part of it, and trying to understand the hardware and to build experience. I was just a kid back then and computers were boxes with a start button and then magic happened . The similarity between then and now is that I have no interest in creating software, but I don't mind using it
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 1:33pm |
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Thanks for the heads up again about the drive. I'll add a fan.
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 1:53pm |
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Where exactly have you mounted the pancake fan? When you have the chance, can you post a picture please?
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 1:53pm |
I have huge box of fans and other stuff from the past. The 3m epoxy double side tape is great because I was not going to take that heatsink plate off and pull the drive under a pile of sh*t!! and then drill/tap didn't need that much attention, just a little focused air
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 2:01pm |
Fly happy wrote:
Where exactly have you mounted the pancake fan? When you have the chance, can you post a picture please? |
might not be really clear but it was in the FS11 bar thread
look at the yellow rectangle in the first image..
It is 1/4 inch thick, about 2.5 inches square center of the heatsink
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 2:01pm |
I guess we are both still doing what we enjoyed doing back then.
Oh, another difference is that he is now getting paid doing what he loved doing as a kid, but I am not |
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 2:35pm |
Bar thread
I see where you mounted your fan. It's gonna be a little more difficult for me to squeeze in a fan in the best possible location because my drive is located just below the PCIEX16_1 slot for the GPU, see below.
But I'll do my best and get a fan there on the heat sink. It's pretty large since it covers two M.2 drives. I won't be able to mount it on top of the drive installed, but probably somewhere close to the PCIEX1_2 slot. Have you put some spacers between the fan and the heatsink?
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 2:37pm |
ewww.. that sucks
you may want to consider removal of that beauty plate and leave it out to do the job
EDIT: As a matter of fact.. leave it off and see what the temp is without it
seriously
the vid card will top that, no question about it so I would look at a solution with that cap off and don't put it back on
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 2:45pm |
Fly happy wrote:
Bar thread
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Hey that thread has almost 49 thousand views most of which happened in the last 9 months... don't be a prude!! 
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Fly happy
Senior Member
Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 3:04pm |
NickN wrote:
you may want to consider removal of that beauty plate and leave it out to do the job |
Engineers just love to change things 
Sure, why not. We'll see what difference it makes.
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 3:09pm |
see.. now yur learnin
I'm just nose pickin here
I might have a 'winner'
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 3:32pm |
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duhhh PCIe 3 x4 port nevermind
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Fly happy
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Joined: October-10-2012
Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 3:45pm |
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All of them support PCIe 3.0x4 but the top one doesn't seem to share bandwidth with other PCIe, nor does it disable SATA slots. So I could have used the one in the lower corner, and not doing so might have been a mistake but I wasn't as aware of temp problems back then. I don't know if I can just move the drive to slot M.2_3 (lower right corner) or if it will lead to issues. I'll check on it.
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
Certified Professional
Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 3:46pm |
If that big plate is not the direct heatsink to the drive(s).. pull that plate
Unless that plate has a real purpose for heatsink, its nothing but show bling and the drive(s) under it will suffer. With the plate off and assuming there is a heatsink plate under that on the drive itself, it will allow air and also allow room for a flat or pancake fan if needed behind the video card that will be mounted over that drive location.
Honestly.. the dicks that design these things ...... need their heads examined |
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Fly happy
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Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 3:50pm |
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The "ribbed" gray plate is a heatsink with thermal tape between the drive(s) and the heatsink. The shiny black cover to the right with the red graphics is just a plastic cover that covers a little bit of the heatsink.
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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NickN
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Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 3:53pm |
ok still.. the dicks that design these things
I read in the manual (fast scan) the port you are in was PCIe x4... I did not dig past that
If the lower corner is the same then that might be a better location because of open access
none the less if that cover plate is the actual heatsink for everything.. again DICKS!
If it isn't and the PCIe x4 I/O speed is the same in the lower corner I probably would have opted for that location.. easier to chill
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NickN
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Joined: November-21-2007
Points: 21104
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 4:01pm |
Perhaps if you chill the entire plate directly, even if the fan is under the video card, that would do the job.
60c is OK.. above that I personally would not do it.
I don't understand this board design for drive location but.. not my job.
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Fly happy
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Location: Sweden
Points: 1053
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Posted: September-06-2020 at 4:03pm |
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I can just move it to M.2_3 for peace of mind, and down there I won't have any problems getting a fan just over that heatsink. I don't think I will ever use more than 4 SATA drives either.
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Hans
W10 Pro, 10900K, ROG Maximus XII Hero, ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 3090 24GB Gaming OC, GSKILL F4-4000C15Q-32GTZR, Corsair H150i RGB PRO XT, Fractal Design 7XL, Corsair HX850
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Seeking advice regarding Z490 build
