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777simmer View Drop Down
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    Posted: January-10-2019 at 2:35pm
Slowly I am moving towards rebuilding my brothers old PC.
(ASUS Z87 Deluxe with Haswell 4770k).

The goal ist to network this PC with my current PC for multi monitor experimenting (playing or messing around one could say).

I will be needing two SSDs for this PC (one for windows 7 and one for FSX with its add ons)
Any 200GB or so SSD will do for the Windows drive I figure.
I am looking something like a Samsung 860 Pro 256Gb (costs about 100€).

As for the FSX drive; an interesting option I came across is the following:

Years ago I could not aford a PCIe SSD, but this one would be ok for me.
1TB for 295€!

Now as always, I am sure the more exspensive PCIe SSDs will perform better. 
But I am not willing to pay 600€ (or more) for the drive.
I am not looking for the best of the best, the latest and greatest.

If this card would be substantially better than a SATA SSDs then I would go for it.
If this is a bad device then I will purchase something like a Samsung 860 EVO (around 170€).

Thx in advance for your opinions.

Rob.


Rob

i7 3770k 4.5Ghz, Asus Max V Formula,GTX780 (previously 680), 8Gb GskillDDR3 2400@9-11-11-31, Change:Win7 64bit on WD Raptor and FSX on SSD since Jan2014.

Untill Sept 2012: Core2Duo E8500@3.9Ghz
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NickN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-10-2019 at 5:29pm
All comes down to..
 
1. Does the PCIe x4 (or x8/x16) slot IRQ resources share with anything else? (motherboard manual defines).   Y/N
 
 a.- IF Yes - does it reduce the PCIe port speed considerably or disable SATA or other ports you need (example, instead of x4 it runs x1) This is where you must decide to either remove the other device, move it to another port or accept the x1 PCIe speed, then go to #2
 
b.- IF No and there will never be a device in a shared port resource with the SSD PCIe slot,.. go to #2
 
 
 
2. IS the PCIe SSD is going to be used for Windows boot?  Y/N
 
a. - IF Yes - Make sure it is indeed bootable either from its own internal BIOS or the system BIOS of the motherboard.
 
b.- IF No - The card should be recognized as a support drive off the PCIe port with the drivers however you should still verify the motherboard will recognize it as such. Most boards made after 2011 should find the drive in Windows with the drivers for the SSD, but this should be verified.
 
 
REMEMBER - You can not use PCIex16_2 with a video card in PCIEx16_1 without neutering the video card to x8 UNLESS your processor and motherboard supports x16 when both slots are populated. (expensive rig)
 
 
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777simmer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 777simmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 5:15am
Thx Nick!

You are right, putting the PCIe SSD in one of the remaining x16 slots would reduce the GPU in PCIe 3.0x16_1 to 8 lanes.

So that is not an option.

I thought it would fit into one of the smaller PCIe 2.0x1slots!

But the specs say:
Form factor: Standarized PCI express card with half height/half length
(I guess that means the card will not fit in a PCIe 2.0x1 slot correct? It needs half of a 16 lane slot?)
Power connector: DC 12V PCI express slot
Data connector: PCI express slot (that doesnt say anything about it needing 4 or 8 or 16 lanes to work full speed)

But the killer is that the specs say that only Win 8.1 and 10 are supported. So with me using Win7, I guess that is the end of that.
Rob

i7 3770k 4.5Ghz, Asus Max V Formula,GTX780 (previously 680), 8Gb GskillDDR3 2400@9-11-11-31, Change:Win7 64bit on WD Raptor and FSX on SSD since Jan2014.

Untill Sept 2012: Core2Duo E8500@3.9Ghz
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NickN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 12:59pm
Typically you need to plan out a setup like that to include the card be it NVMe PCIe or M.2 slot. If you have say a 3rd PCIe (x4 or x8) slot that is separate from the x16 slot your video card is located in the NVMe card will typically still work assuming there are drivers available for the OS you use,....  but it will not run at its full rated speed which brings me to the next subject...
 
 
The other factor or 'gotcha' is that the system must boot Windows from the NVMe or you do not get the top tier speed. It will still be VERY fast but not what you paid for on the tin. The NVMe PCIe x4 must have the OS on it and boot from it or your expensive card (and other cards like it in the system) will not run at their full NVMe potential. 
 
 
I did not have to deal with that issue but I paid for the price of admission. The PCIe SSD I used for years was in that 3rd long (black) PCIe slot. That slot shared resources with the first PCIe_x1 slot on the motherboard and therefore I had to be sure not to put any card in that 1st small slot, like a wireless NIC, etc. It also shared with a SATA port so again, I lost the use of that SATA port (there were 6 anyway so it wasn't a problem) but these things can limit the system in order to obtain the goal. I also had to be sure the motherboard would support booting from that card in the 3rd long PCIe slot too.
 
 
Unlike todays NVMe SSD's my PCIe x4/x8 SSD has its own built-in on-card BIOS and booted with on-screen display before I would see the actual motherboard BIOS readout or be able to enter the BIOS for the motherboard. Therefore it did not matter if the OS was on it or not as it would perform at its full rated speed regardless.
 
 
But that all came with a major cost at the time. Today the prices are far more reasonable.
 
 
These newer NVMe 'gum-sticks' and the AICs require the BIOS of the motherboard to have NVMe boot support and in order to do that you would typically need to plan ahead when building the system to make sure your motherboard and storage strategy would provide what you are paying for.   
 
These motherboard companies know how to sell by showing you a large rack of slots on the board but when you check what slot shares with what including onboard devices you find out real quick just how many of slots you can really use without forfeiting features. All of a sudden a board that has 3 PCIe_x16 size slots and 4-5 others isn't as pretty as the picture when you can really only utilize 2 or 3 of them without sacrificing features you thought you would have or need.
 
And sometimes, their manuals either leave information out or are written with a misleading outline on shared resources. You must be cautious even with the more expensive boards but typically one of the reasons those higher end boards are more expensive is because they allow far better use of the resources without hassles, but price is not a guarantee.
 
 
There was a discussion about that and newer motherboards here: https://www.simforums.com/forums/new-computer-time_topic59632_post387208.html#387208
 
 
Here is a article on NVMe PCIe SSD
 
 
QUOTE:
What you need to get NVMe
 
It’s possible to add an NVMe drive to any PC with an PCIe slot via a $25 adapter card. All recent versions of the major operating systems provide drivers, and regardless of the age of the system you will have a very fast drive on your hands. But there’s a catch.
 
To benefit fully from an NVMe SSD, you must be able to boot the operating system from it. That requires BIOS support. Sigh. Most older mainstream BIOSes do not support booting from NVMe and most likely, never will. There’s simply no benefit to the vendors to add it, and a very real downside: You’re unlikely to upgrade a system that’s been updated with NVMe unless you play PC games or do something truly CPU-intensive, like editing 2160p video.
 
.... read more there to continue
 
--------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
 
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TheFamilyMan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheFamilyMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 2:31pm
I REALLY want one of these drives bootable in my Win7 Box, which happens to be the nearly the same mobo/cpu as described in the OP.  NickN, any idea if this hotfix can solve the apparent Win7 incompatibility with this drive as mentioned above? http://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2990941/update-to-add-native-driver-support-in-nvm-express-in-windows-7-and-wi

Having a bootable NVMe is the *only* reason I've been considering an upgrade (rather silly to spend $1K or so just get a <10 seconds login from a power on).  Getting one of these badboys to work almost seems too good to be true: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820249107
Even if it it runs a bit crippled in my mobo's pcie2 x4 slot I'll be happy.  Thanks for reading!!!

Edit: After reading about the hurdles and hoops to go through to make it Z87 bootable (i.e. custom modding a bios and flashing it) , I think I'll pass, though not having it Win7 non-bootable seems only to require that hotfix.
Rod O.

i7 4770k @4.5/4.3, Asus Z87 Pro, 2x8GB DDR3 2400 cas 10, evga 1070 gtx SC, Corsair TX-750 PSU, Silver Arrow SB-E HSF

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777simmer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 777simmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 4:57pm
Ok.

Thanks for the interesting read Nick.

So I cant put the card into one of my big slots (x16) cause it would reduce the GPU to 8 lanes.
A no go.

And the card will not physically fit in the other small slots I have (PCIE 2.0x1 slots)

But whatI did read is that such memory could be connected externally via Thunderbolt.
And I do have two thunderbolt 2 ports on this MB.

Not sure if that is worth it, maybe thunderbolt 3 is required to take better advantage of the fast SSD?
But if even that solution also requires OS bootability from the then external SSD....then I can stop fantasising again.
Rob

i7 3770k 4.5Ghz, Asus Max V Formula,GTX780 (previously 680), 8Gb GskillDDR3 2400@9-11-11-31, Change:Win7 64bit on WD Raptor and FSX on SSD since Jan2014.

Untill Sept 2012: Core2Duo E8500@3.9Ghz
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777simmer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 777simmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 5:08pm
PS I did find a firmware update at the ASUS support site for my MB:

Intel Management Engine Firmware upgrade program
For better Windows® 8 compatibility, this tool will update the Intel® Management Engine(ME) firmware to 8.1. 
Before using the tool, make sure the Intel Management Engine Interface Driver is installed and follow the simple instruction.

But I guess this does not update my system to be compatible with PCIE SSDs like Windows 8.1 is?!

Non of the BIOS updates I found say anything about NVMe SSD's or PCIE SSD compatibility. So I guess you are right....ASUS is not bothering with that.

Rob

i7 3770k 4.5Ghz, Asus Max V Formula,GTX780 (previously 680), 8Gb GskillDDR3 2400@9-11-11-31, Change:Win7 64bit on WD Raptor and FSX on SSD since Jan2014.

Untill Sept 2012: Core2Duo E8500@3.9Ghz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 5:47pm
Firmware for Intel Management Engine had nothing to do with SSD. It was probably posted to deal with the Spectre vulnerability.
 
 
And to answer the question about the Native NVMe Windows 7 support and the hotfix, that has nothing to do with making the cards bootable, just recognizable so drivers can be installed..  and from there you MUST have the driver from the manufacture to run the device properly.
 
They do not make the card I have anymore. It has its own self contained BIOS which means it does not rely on the motherboard BIOS to make it recognizable or bootable. It was also designed for the PCIe 2.0 x4/x8 protocol.
 
As for Thunderbolt, as I recall it requires TB-3 for NVMe, not 2
 
 
 
I would not dump money into NVMe unless I knew I was going to get what I paid for and I knew it wasn't going to force me to shut off MB features that I need or may want
 
 
 
 
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TheFamilyMan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheFamilyMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 6:38pm
NickN, got it.

It's surprising that it appears that there is no driver of any sort which the vendor supplies for it.

Thanks for you prompt reply...yeah, it had to be to good to be true Unhappy
Rod O.

i7 4770k @4.5/4.3, Asus Z87 Pro, 2x8GB DDR3 2400 cas 10, evga 1070 gtx SC, Corsair TX-750 PSU, Silver Arrow SB-E HSF

Win 7 Ult 64, Asus 25" IPS 2K monitor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-12-2019 at 6:45am
I have benefited from enterprise class SSD which is the same as the new rebranded home user term: NVMe since early 2012: https://www.storagereview.com/ocz_revodrive_3_x2_review_update
 
That solution still runs today and just as efficient and as fast as the latest and greatest NVMe. Although I do admit I installed a fan on the heatsink knowing where OCZ screwed the pooch on that design. It still runs today with zero failure. (could be my fan addition)  
 
I never had any scenery loading issues or high CPU overhead for storage delivery.   go figure!
 
 
...and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon   LOL
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TheFamilyMan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheFamilyMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-31-2019 at 6:22pm
Recently installed that Plextor PCIe x4 NVMe 512GB drive in my Z87 mobo.  That drive works perfectly in my Win7 system with those Win7 NVMe hot fixes installed; literally plug'n'play.  CrystalDiskMark claims it's seeing the performance 'written on the tin'.  Downsides: ate an SLI mobo slot so my gcard is now at x8, and the hoops to jump through to make it bootable are too much of a PITA to deal with at this time.  I've yet to notice any RL gcard performance hit.  If I ever need to reinstall windows (or go to win10...sigh), I'll train up to jump those hoops.  BTW, that thing is smoooookin' fast!  Nearly 6x faster than my best sata 3 SSD.
Rod O.

i7 4770k @4.5/4.3, Asus Z87 Pro, 2x8GB DDR3 2400 cas 10, evga 1070 gtx SC, Corsair TX-750 PSU, Silver Arrow SB-E HSF

Win 7 Ult 64, Asus 25" IPS 2K monitor
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