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UTX v2 and effect on UK2000 airports

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Ray Proudfoot View Drop Down
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    Posted: July-12-2017 at 4:34am
I'm running P3D v3.4 and have UTX Europe v2 installed as well as many UK2000 airports including Manchester and Gatwick.

I had a problem with the jetways not appearing at Manchester but they did at Gatwick. There was just a stump on the end of the terminal building where the jetway should be attached.

I relocated to Gatwick and the jetways were fine. I was able to move them via the GSX menu.

I spent over 6 hours yesterday trying to solve this problem before I decided to investigate UTX. I found an option under Terrain - Modify Status Of Repositioned Airports. In the list it showed EGCC but oddly not EGKK. I selected EGCC and disabled it.

Restarted P3D, let the indexes rebuild and lo and behold, the jetways appeared at EGCC.

Can anyone please explain why UTX has this effect on jetways?
Cheers,

Ray
3 miles east of EGCC.
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Ray Proudfoot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Proudfoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-12-2017 at 5:59pm
A reply would be appreciated. This is definitely something I can reproduce and is down to UTX Europe and its effect on elements of scenery in UK2000 airports.

I can give you a scenario to test if necessary. You need P3D v3.4, UTX Europe v2 and UK2000 Manchester Xtreme v2.

I can't be the only user with that combo.
Cheers,

Ray
3 miles east of EGCC.
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quantumleap View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quantumleap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-12-2017 at 7:36pm
As UTX does not reposition every airport to correct geographical inaccuracies in the one supplied by the core sim only ones which have been reported by users or where our own testing showed issues this is why you see EGCC (which was repositioned) and EGKK (which was not).

The tools which were developed in-house at Scenery Solutions to handle the airport repositioning improve over time but this also means that work which was done some time ago may no longer work when there are changes in the underlying sim platform code. This could be happening in your case but as you throw in another 3rd-party product this can complicate things. We'll add it to our issue list for further investigation.

As for the how fast a reply can come please remember that developers/support staff may work in different timezones to the customer and as this is not something which we do full-time and other personal time commitments impact us we do our best. In general this means posters in this specific forum usually get a reply within 24 hours.

Jeff


Check out my aviation photography and digital art at Photisify
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akriesman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote akriesman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-12-2017 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by Ray Proudfoot Ray Proudfoot wrote:

A reply would be appreciated. This is definitely something I can reproduce and is down to UTX Europe and its effect on elements of scenery in UK2000 airports.

I can give you a scenario to test if necessary. You need P3D v3.4, UTX Europe v2 and UK2000 Manchester Xtreme v2.

I can't be the only user with that combo.

As Jeff mentioned Ray.   It has to do with P3D and the airport repositioning tools that were used.  Until we have a chance to address this issue with some airports in Europe, you are going to have to disable the EGCC repositionings.

As this is a fairly major undertaking for P3D only, it won't be resolved until we have a chance to release V3.   The solution is to just disable the repositioned UTX airports that you are having problems with.
Allen

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Ray Proudfoot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Proudfoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2017 at 4:03am
Hi Jeff / Allen,

Thank you both for your replies. I don't remember having this problem with FSX:SP2 so it appears to be an incompatibility between UTX and P3D v3.x. It just struck me as strange that rather than get any altitude / terrain problems it should manifest itself by blocking a jetway from being shown.

I did wonder why there wasn't an entry for EGKK. But having disabled EGCC (and EGNT) it has resolved the problem so it's resolved for me. I have also posted about this in the UK2000 Manchester forum with a link to this post so hopefully others with the problem can find a resolution.
Cheers,

Ray
3 miles east of EGCC.
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akriesman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akriesman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2017 at 11:37pm
Ray,

Jetways are handled very oddly in both FSX and P3D.   IMO, they are the quirkiest thing in the sim.

When a scenery developer reworks an airport, we have to exclude all default airport objects to prevent duplicates.   After. we exclude the existing objects, we add them as new objects in a more accurate locations.

Jetway objects are the one and only exception.  If jetways get excluded by any product, they disappear for all products.   And, it can be really tough to exclude a terminal without getting the jetways also sometimes.   The airport editing software that was used to reposition EGCC creates one exclusion for the entire airport.

So, what probably happened at EGCC was that the Jetways were excluded when we repositioned it.   However, I believe this would affect both FSX and P3D and not just P3D.   When I original read your post I got jetways objects confused with something else.

Sorry you spent so long trying to figure it out.   The Jetway/exclusion issue completely baffles scenery developers.  We know how to deal with it.  But, the solution is not logical at all.

Cheers.


Allen

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Ray Proudfoot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Proudfoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-14-2017 at 4:31am
Hi Allen,

Thanks for that explanation. The problem may well have occurred with FSX but I rarely positioned my aircraft at Terminal 2 gates preferring to use T3 which are closer to the runways and those don't have jetways.

I never realised UTX included airport objects. I thought it only included detailed coastlines, lakes, rivers etc. Now that I know airports are included I have a better understanding of the product.

Thank goodness you included the option to disable individual airports otherwise this problem would be unsolvable. Although it was frustrating to spend so long working on it it was ultimately satisfying to have resolved it.

Reminds me of that Sherlock Holmes line... When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Big smile
Cheers,

Ray
3 miles east of EGCC.
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akriesman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akriesman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-17-2017 at 10:44am
Hi Ray,

I need to clarify some things here.  UTX really does not provide any new airport objects.   However, in order to move the airports, we have to move the existing objects also.    In order to move any objects in FSX/P3D, you have to delete the original FSX objects and then add them back as new objects.

Hope this helps.
Allen

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Ray Proudfoot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Proudfoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-17-2017 at 11:37am
Hi Allen,

Might be a daft question but why do you move airports? Is it because the default isn't in the right place?

Assuming that is the case then for any 3rd party airport it's probably best if that airport is disabled in UTX since the 3rd party one is likely to be the most accurate in terms of position.
Cheers,

Ray
3 miles east of EGCC.
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quantumleap View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quantumleap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-17-2017 at 2:37pm
Yes, the usual reason for us repositioning airports is because they are incorrectly located. For large airports this is usually not too bad but for some of the smaller airports they can be hundreds of metres away from where they really are. Other reasons we could reposition are when there are changes to the road network because of changes in the runway locations or dimensions, or the accuracy of placement of default buildings at the default airport is incorrect and clashes with a geographically correct location of a UTX feature such as a road, railroad or water.

Do not assume that just because you have a 3rd party airport that it is correctly  geographically located. They may have developed it to match the default sim location and not the real world location.

Jeff


Check out my aviation photography and digital art at Photisify
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Ray Proudfoot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Proudfoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-17-2017 at 5:17pm
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the info. It would be odd if some 3rd party airports were that far away from their real positions but you obviously have experience of this so I trust to your better judgement.
Cheers,

Ray
3 miles east of EGCC.
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akriesman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akriesman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-18-2017 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by Ray Proudfoot Ray Proudfoot wrote:

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the info. It would be odd if some 3rd party airports were that far away from their real positions but you obviously have experience of this so I trust to your better judgement.

Hi Ray,

Most of the larger and important airports (like EGCC) are generally accurate in FSX/P3D.    But, even small inaccuracies can play havoc with the really accurately placed UTX roads.  For the larger airports, we usually have to do some work with the airport grounds, moving of terminals, etc.    The really large airports are difficult to edit and we would rather not have to mess with them in UTX because of the risk of side effects.  But, in some cases we felt it important to due so to keep things from looking messy with terminal roads dead ending into misplaced airport aprons, etc.   The user always has an option of disabling the UTX modifications.

Smaller airports in FSX/P3D can be really misplaced.   I have seen some that were 1 or 2 km's from where they should be.    Most of the repositioning of airports in UTX is of the smaller variety because they are so out of place.   The out of place airports are usually the ones that have the worst "plateau" problems also,  because the airport elevation does not fit the elevation at the incorrect location.

I will also elaborate on Jeff's comment.   He is not saying that 3rd party airports are going to be inaccurately positioned.    He is just saying that you cannot assume that they are.  I am sure that all payware airports are probably going to be accurately positioned.   But, some developers, especially freeware, may choose to just enhance the airport in the current location.




Allen

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Ray Proudfoot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Proudfoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2017 at 9:29am
Hi Allen / Jeff,

Thanks for that info. I have a question about which airports appear in your Terrain - Airports list. I have just completed a flight into LPPD in Concorde and noticed that whilst the runway, taxiways and apron merged fine there appeared to be a huge ravine just short of Rwy 12. I wondered if you had examined that airport. I know it's difficult to merge scenery perfectly especially where there are cliffs, coastline and airport in close proximity.

LPPD is commercial airport by TropicalSim.
Cheers,

Ray
3 miles east of EGCC.
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quantumleap View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quantumleap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2017 at 6:47pm
Only airports which appear listed in the "Modify status of repositioned airports" under the Terrain menu in the UTX Setup Tool have been repositioned by us. LPPD is not one of those locations so what you are seeing is related to either the default and/or the add-on airport for that location.

Jeff


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Ray Proudfoot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Proudfoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-25-2017 at 7:27am
Thanks Jeff.
Cheers,

Ray
3 miles east of EGCC.
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