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dmz0427 View Drop Down
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    Posted: June-29-2013 at 10:40pm
If not using the 1/2 V sync in inspector, and have V sync set to Force on in Inspector and FPS set to Unlimited in FSX
do I add this entry under Main in FSX CFG

FIBER_FRAME_TIME_FRACTION=12
I thought I read in a post that if not using 1/2 Vsync Not to put that entry in FSX CFG
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 777simmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2013 at 1:17am
The way I understand it, FFTF is used to reduce the load on the CPU.
Because when you use 1/2Vsync, you must be able to maintain a constant 30fps (otherwise it does not work), and reducing the load on the CPU can help you achieving those 30fps.

If FFTF is reduced too much you get blurry textures while flying.

When you fly unlimited there is no real goal as to frames per second.
It can be 20 or 30 or 40fps and it does not matter much.
(although I have read that FSX generaly does better around 30FPS even if unlimited is set)

So there is also no reason to put that line in the .cfg file.
Rob

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Untill Sept 2012: Core2Duo E8500@3.9Ghz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmz0427 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2013 at 1:38am
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2013 at 6:39am
Rob is correct
 
If you have the overhead in render ability what you are doing is using FFTF to shift the processor focus from terrain and give a little more to other end.
 
In the past with slower CPU technology lower FFTF would cause a system to display a blurry mess and was useless with multicore, when Aces made that statement it was true but only true in the context of the processor technology of the day.
 
What FFTF allows is a system that might be a few frames short to slip closer to that golden 30FPS number and because of the advancements in CPU speed and clock per clock the blurs are not an issue as the render can keep up.
 
With 1/2 Refresh Rate on a 60hz monitor you are setting Vsync to match the frame lock of 30
 
ULTIMATELY we would all love to lock FPS at 60 and run Vertical Sync FORCE ON which would lock Vsync at 60    60FPS - 60Hz  
 
Getting the frame lock in perfect sync with the refresh rate is what fixes the microstutters that are found in EVERY game, not just FSX, but with FSX they are far worse due to how SP1/SP2 were designed.
 
Problems is..  you cant constantly hold 60FPS in FSX with any high load aircraft/scenery even with a highly overclocked processor, therefore the 1/2 Refresh provided by Nvidia is a blessing since with the technology advancements today we can run 30FPS locked assuming the user is reasonable with the settings.
 
As the processor and video card technology increases that 30FPS becomes a PEGGED value instead of a fluctuating between 25-30 and that is the goal...  find the settings that get you to 30FPS locked and keep you there.
 
 
With FFTF this helps but if the system is older (920 vs a SB or HW), or, you are flying over scenery that is just over the top silly in design you may not be able to run a FFTF of .12 and have to raise that to .15, .20, .22 or the ground blurs too much.
 
The faster the system the lower the FFTF it will allow and eventually when we get into DDR4 and processor cock-per-clocks of 2015 then FFTF wont even be needed and most likely we can start looking at locking 60FPS and not use 1/2 refresh rate.
 
 
 
Now if you running unlimited frame lock, or, switching between 30 and unlimited you can not use 1/2 refresh. FFTF at that point may start forcing blurs, therefore we don't use it.
 
You can try it! As it will always shift focus from terrain to the other side as its lowered however when you are not locking frames or running unlimited lowering FFTF will probably force a lot of scenery clarity to be lost. That is why it is eliminated unless locked 30 is the max value to be rendered.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmz0427 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2013 at 7:22pm
so if I am running my frame lock in FSX at unlimited, (and I know the frames will not go any higher then the monitor refresh rate of 60 Hz it may show higher but it really isn't,)should I have Vsync force on or application control or should I lock fps in FSX to 60
the reason I brought this up is I tried 1/2 vsync locked 30, with FFTF .15 did and tried force on Vsync unlimited with FFTF .15 End result is Unlimited fps in FSX with out FFTF in the CFG gave me the best performance and visual appearance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2013 at 7:27pm
Vsync is ALWAYS either FORCE ON, for switching between 30, 60 and Unlimited....  or 1/2 refresh for running locked 30 at all times
 
Vsync force OFF will display image tearing.. we never run with it off
 
It is important to understand, running 1/2 refresh and locked 30 is usually not possible for people who are running slower processors/video adapter or a combination of the two, or, running outrageous scenery and aircraft loads..  if you can not tune the system in the sliders running locked 30 and keep that frame rate high enough or close enough to 30 then you can't use that method
 
That is why some must continue to resort to using a variable frame lock for flights, switching between locked and unlimited.
 
The reason you found unlimited and force on was better is because your system can NOT render fast enough to run the other way. There is bottleneck somewhere, either the CPU or video card or too much scenery and plane for one or the other
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmz0427 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2013 at 8:05pm
The Scenery is set to your FSX guide which is old but still effective. also I noticed with fps set to unlimited the GPU core speed went up where before it stayed at 933 now the boost kicked in when on unlimited
Newer vid card, mem 1688 7-8-7-24 1n With cpu at 4.4 so I would have to guess cpu and mem being the issue not to say the card is for pciE 3.0 my sys is 2.0
I know mismatched hardware,,
Thanks Nick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2013 at 8:19pm
First of all, the FSX slider settings I post are to get the BALL ROLLING,.  you have to tune it from there and change those based on the aircraft and scenery
 
I did not post FSX slider settings based on a PMDG flying over Aerosoft NYC  
 
The user has to tune and adjust based on what they use for addons.
 
you have 660Ti card.. right?
 
PCIe 2 will hold back a PCIe 3 card... no question,  but that card is not what I would have used..  I would have sooner gone with a EBay used 480GTX over that 660ti
 
I just set someone up that had a 920 but he could not clock past 4GHz due to his HSF type.. Since a new 570 series was not easy to get and he wanted new, I put him in a 670 running 1/2 refresh and a locked 30 and he could not be happier.
 
of course he came from a GTX 280 which was way outdated
 
That's not to say it would work for you.. it depends on what you are flying and what you are flying over. He doesn't use Orbx or any of those types of addons and stays focused on the aircraft with basic UTX/GEX scenery. He does prefer complex G1000 simulations such as F1 Mustang and their Cessna product which that setup now runs smooth
 
It was a choppy mess in the past.
 
He tested FORCE ON and the other FPS method first and it ran great but still had those fine micro-stutters here and there...  and then I had him switch up to 1/2 refresh and 30 locked. What he found was the last of the 'micro-stutters' were squashed and that's what he uses now all the time.
 
 It really does depend on the bottom line render of objects and complexity of the aircraft.
 
 
Scenery addons can be a users worse nightmare regardless of how good they look. People pay developer to hand them their problems, everything from OOM, shimmers, stutters..   Developers don't care, they just want the money. http://www.simforums.com/forums/texture-flashing_topic46184_page2.html
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Airvette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-30-2013 at 9:08pm
And I thank you profusely Nick!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2013 at 7:22am
 
 
..and there's the living proof
 
 
No problem Paul
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Originally posted by NickN NickN wrote:

the 1/2 Refresh provided by Nvidia is a blessing since with the technology advancements today we can run 30FPS locked assuming the user is reasonable with the settings.


Why do we need to use/enable Vsync 1/2 at all if we can just use FSX frame limiter or Nvidia frame rate limiter and set it to 30FPS? wouldn't that accomplish the same thing?

Vsync 1/2 refresh rate will use half your monitor's refresh rate and lock it (30FPS when assuming monitor is 60hz) . I can do that manually in FSX setting or using Nvidia Frame Rate limiter. Why bother with Vsync?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2013 at 10:45am
Abdul
 
The issue is not in simply running locked 30, the issue is running the FRAME LOCK and Vsync equally
 
The primary problem with Vsync and FSX was announce with SP1/SP2. Phil Taylor expressed that the changes imported into those updates had a significant influence on the issue of Vsync which has been a problem with games for years, the patches exacerbate the issue.
 
 
You can look up the issues with Vsync and games yourself.. they have been around for a long time.
 
Nvidia came up with this system to curb the problem.
 
 
Now, first person shooter games where the gamer wants those unrestricted high FPS, they can not use such methods, but FSX is all about resources and it has a priority system built into it that if you set UNLIMITED frame lock in the application and turn around and use a external drive frame limiter, YOU are changing how the rendering engine works. FSX will still function based on being set to UNLIMITED frame lock, will throw its priority render code out the door eliminating several key areas of control and then you take what you can get.
 
 
Here is the bottom line Abdul..   if you are satisfied with what you are doing and how you are doing it..  then stay with it. There is a reason why that might be working better for you.
 
Here is what I can tell you, 9 times out of 10 when a local user tells me something like that and I go to their house and LOOK at how their sim render, that person has no concept of 'butter smooth' flight and assumes what they see on the screen is excellent
 
 
keep that in mind too.. a lot of those tweaks being thrown around and passed off as 'better' are based on people who would not know sharp clarity in the distance or what 'consistent' smooth flight is really like on that screen.
 
 
 And then I have come across the user who I have SHOWN them the difference and they were amazed!  but in order to accomplish it I had to trim out scenery settings OR shut down a very BADLY designed airport scenery and get rid of high AA settings they used to make that airport NOT SHIMMER..  and the person decided they didn't like that so instead they prefer the stutters creeping in, drops in FPS, they will deal with the shimmers with that scenery running higher AA levels, and, they are willing to ignore the micro-stutters so they can look at their silly scenery and then run with a external limiter and FSX set to UNLIMITED to overcome the problems the best they can.
 
 
 
 and there you have it!   Different strokes for different folks!
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aboodnet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2013 at 11:05am
NickN,

I completely agree with you but i don't understand why people keep insisting on enabling Vsync for FSX. (whether it is Vsync ON or 1/2 refresh rate)

I know what Vsync is, why it was created, its benefits and disadvantages. But, according to my experience, in my games including FSX, if Vsync is enabled in a system that produces less FPS than the monitor refresh rate (let's say 35FPS on 60hz monitor), it will actually reduce the overall performance, meaning further lowering the minimum FPS while reducing screen tears by a small fraction. I have tested this myself.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2013 at 11:12am
 
 
Vsync controls IMAGE tearing..  you know that!
 
I turn off Vsync here and my image starts ripping and rippling
 
If you do not see that, or perhaps you have simply trained you brain to ignore it.. it would drive me NUTS looking at that
 
I have NO image tearing, I have no performance problems and Abdul if you like what you see, then stick with it..   you sound like a gamer who must or prefers shutting Vsync down for reasons that FSX needs it enabled
 
 
 Most 'gamers' I have met have the same opinion you do, its been programmed into their heads and now all they see is what they want to and accept it
 
There is nothing wrong with that!  If you are convinced its better.. then stay with it. Big smile
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aboodnet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2013 at 11:35am
NickN,

You are completely right. Without Vsync, screen tearing will occur at some point especially in fast moving scenes like when using FSX EZdok camera addon. I do notice screen tearing when i have Vsync off, but they are very minimal and they do not occur very often in my system, i do not know why. Maybe you are right, i trained my mind to skip noticing screen tearing :)

One point to consider, when vsync is off,  screen/image tearing will occur whether your system produces higher FPS or lower FPS than the monitor refresh rate. The only way to get rid of screen tearing is if your system produces FPS 100% equal to your monitor refresh rate, no less no more (ex. 60FPS constant on 60hz monitor), which, in my opinion, is really rare to achieve without enabling Vsync.

NickN, do you have Vsync on along with enabling triple buffering?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2013 at 11:50am

Abdul.. you are locked into 'hard_gamer_mode'  LOL

 
That wont work for myself and for most people   
 
 
I know exactly what you are talking about and its far better served up with GAMES not FSX.
 
I don't need to test it and know what it does. Been there, done that!
 
 
 
 
 
That's it..    bottom line
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aboodnet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2013 at 12:54pm
I guess i am ;p

BTW, if you have a modern graphic card, like Nvidia 700 series or the Titan, you do not need the "anti-aliasing-transparency super-sampling".

I cannot wait to see FSX running and lock at 60FPS using high resolution setting combined with at least PMDG and a couple of mid-resolution sceneries. Maybe it will happen with Intel's new 14nm processor technologies, which should be out, according to their Tick-Tock road-map, by end of 2015 or early 2016.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2013 at 3:53pm
And therein lies the problem
 
ya know..  you gamers with "You must have 60FPS and no less" are one of the PRIMARY PROBLEMS with Flight Sim.. LOL 
 
you guys started that nonsense years ago and have everyone looking at frame counters when what MATTERS with FSX is SMOOTH, not frames
 
You can have 22 smooth as glass frame rates and a gamer will SWEAR that sucks!   Big smile
 
 
That's why you cant see past your nose with those settings you run and ignore the lousy image tearing and other issues!  LOL!!
 
 
 
 
I'm just bustin your chops...  LOL
 
 
Here is a funny gamer story though..   back in 2005 there was a kid in the neighborhood his father asked me to look at his system for FS9 and said his son was having problems with it.. stutters, did not look clear, image quality, poor distance   you know, the typical stuff~
 
.. this kid had the latest gamer setup and was clocked to the max. I went in there and spent about 20 minutes redoing his config and setting up the graphics (he ran Vsync OFF too!) then tuned that sim and called the kid in the room..
 
He was SHOCKED..  it was BUTTER SMOOTH and the visuals were 10x better, razor sharp and I had it rendering scenery he NEVER saw before
 
UNTIL
 
10 minutes later he came downstairs to where his father and I were talking and told me there was something wrong ...  it was not running right. So I went back upstairs and looked at it and could find nothing wrong and then asked him what he was talking about...
 
 
ITS ONLY RENDERING 28FPS!!   I HAD IT RUNNING 45!
 
 
I wanted to smack that little gamer SNOT right upside the head! Clown
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aboodnet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2013 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by NickN NickN wrote:


"what MATTERS with FSX is SMOOTH, not frames"


There is a relationship between smoothness and frame rates. The closer the frame rates to your monitor's refresh rate, the smoother the performance will be. Don't you agree with that? Stern Smile

If you don't agree with that, i suggest you try setting/locking your FPS in FSX to 10 only. I did that today and the performance was awful, micro and macro stutters, image tearing, and image blurs everywhere. But, when i locked it back to 30, at least 85% of those issues disappeared. So, imagine what would be like if you can have it locked at 60FPS or, lets go nuts, image locking it at 120FPS using 120hz monitor.

Again, this is my theory and i cannot prove it yet because i am limited by the technology of my time but lets wait and see a couple of years from now Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-01-2013 at 4:26pm
ABDUL
 
 30FPS LOCKED and VSYNC 1/2 REFESH RATE = EQUAL NUMBER   30FPS  - 60/2=30 Refesh
 
or SMOOTHER PERFORMANCE
 
you ARE right
 
LOL!!!  LOL
 
But you can not use FSX FPS - UNLIMITED with a external frame rate limiter!  It is not the same!
 
The FPS must be locked within FSX or you are bypassing the FSX system completely and that throws everyone off.
 
Further, the problem is with FSX and 60/60 you CANT obtain 60FPS running the heavy hitting planes and scenery
 
I CAN do it with a default plane over vector scenery with the 4770/780
 
Heck, I could do that with the 980x and the 480GTX!
 
Its when we add in the extras we cant!
 
and one last item..   FSX is NOT A GAME Abdul..  it does not render like ANY GAME   therefore you DONT NEED 60/60 with FSX
 
 
 120hz monitors do NOT use the same method of obtaining Vsync!
 
That is part of their internal software and the processor.. it works but its NOT the same as a monitor at 60Hz therefore the results running 1/4 Refresh Rate (in Nvidia Inspector) and 30FPS locked   (120/4=30) with a 120hz monitor MAY NOT WORK   nor will 120/120
 
It depends on the monitor and how the manufacture programmed the processing system to deal with Vsync.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aboodnet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-02-2013 at 12:32am
Originally posted by NickN NickN wrote:

But you can not use FSX FPS - UNLIMITED with a external frame rate limiter!  It is not the same!
 
The FPS must be locked within FSX or you are bypassing the FSX system completely and that throws everyone off.


I did not know that.

So, FPS unlimited in FSX setting with nvidia external limiter been used is a bad idea and FPS should always be locked internally using FSX setting. Got it :)

I guess even when Vsync(1/2) is enabled, FPS needs to be locked to 30FPS internally in FSX setting even though Vsync(1/2) locks FPS to 30FPS by itself. |Is that right?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-02-2013 at 8:22am
No
 
Vsync does NOT lock FPS by itself.. it only LIMITS the number of true frames that can be displayed in the monitor. It has nothing to do with LIMITING in a application, it has to do with LIMITING the monitor so its not overdriving its own native refresh and creating screen image tears.
 
 
 a 60hz monitor can only visually display about 10-15 frames more than the refresh rate, REGARDLESS of the FPS readout in FSX. That means if you see 5000 FPS with FSX set to UNLIMITED you are only visually seeing 70-75MAX on that screen and all the rest are dropped from the frame buffer before those frames ever hit the output pixel generators of the video card and are sent to the screen
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 777simmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-02-2013 at 8:39am
Yes, I did not want to interrupt and maybe say something that Nick then has to correct again.

But it seems there is some misunderstanding here after all on how Vsync works (and I am not claiming that I do by the way)

Abdul posted this a bit higher up in this thread:

"Why do we need to use/enable Vsync 1/2 at all if we can just use FSX frame limiter or Nvidia frame rate limiter and set it to 30FPS? wouldn't that accomplish the same thing?

Vsync 1/2 refresh rate will use half your monitor's refresh rate and lock it (30FPS when assuming monitor is 60hz) . I can do that manually in FSX setting or using Nvidia Frame Rate limiter. Why bother with Vsync?"
Rob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-02-2013 at 8:49am
FORGET Vsync as a control of FSX or any other games FRAMES, that is NOT TRUE
 
The application still renders into the card past that point if the application is allowed (unlimited frame lock) those frames simply never make it to the screen once the monitor  native refresh rate has been reached.
 
 consider that the OVERHEAD available and you can define that as a performance value IF the application is made to RENDER AN EXACT DUPLICATE OF EACH PASS EVERY SINGLE TIME THAT APPLICATION IS RUN and condense it into a value that can be used in compare to the FSX render engine because of how the test is made  : IE; 3DMark06 - is not exact but is in fact very similar to the ESP render engine and because of that the result from that test has merit
 
We do not run Vertical Sync ON, FORCE ON or 1/2 when we run 3DMark06, we run it set to OFF or Let Application Decide because the output scores in 3DMark06 will reflect what that hardware will create in OVERHEAD performance when the hardware is locked at the refresh rate of the monitor. That is where you get the smooth flight with the heavy plane or scenery with frames LOCKED in FSX, the overhead the hardware will produce.
 
 
You cant do that with FSX because FSX is loading up the world with VARIABLES that will constantly change and never render exactly the same even with identical hardware and predefined flight setup and flight path.
 
3DMark06 establishes a SET AND DEFINED CRITERIA AND LOAD with no variables or changes. Therefore the score or benchmark is VALID and linear regardless of screen tears, jitters or stutters seen on the screen during the benchmark
 
 
In FSX we can NOT define using any 'benchmark flight' based solely on FRAMES, it must be defined based on smooth flight, scenery loading, lack of image tearing and jitter, image clarity both close and in the distance, as well as transitions from scenery boundary to scenery boundary. It is IMPOSSIBLE to rate or judge FSX by frame rates
 
 
 and there is something else that seems everyone is missing: PRIORTY RENDER SYSTEM
 
In a nutshell what that does in FSX is look at the OVERHEAD available and if the application sees the resources DROPPING for what-ever-reason, be it stupid high res graphics, dumb scenery design in draw calls, or just plain low end hardware that can not keep up, FSX will automatically SHIFT the priority FROM the scenery TO the aircraft to maintain stable flight! And then switch it back as the resources are released.
 
THIS is where the blurs, stutters, distance clarity and FRAMES are lost or changed and why it is totally impossible to 'benchmark' that application. FSX will never, EVER render the same scene, the same flight on the same hardware the same way.
 
 
 GAMES do not have that kind of priority render system in them.. they do not vary themselves automatically and change like that. Games use what is known as "LOCAL MAPS' where everything takes place from scene to scene..   FSX loads the WORLD where everything changes moment to moment.
 
If you were to watch how FSX works in a file monitor program you would see it searches and taps files from ALL OVER THE WORLD and not just the area you are flying.. there IS a reason for that! Games would never do that, no reason to.
 
FSX is a SIMULATOR .. it is NOT a GAME, does not render like a game, will not respond to settings like a GAME.
 
 
 
EDIT:

I think I can sum this up and close this topic really fast by using this example with respect to what I said above:
 
FSX when set to unlimited and the monitor set to FORCE Vsync OFF CAN display 150FPS and STILL SHOW POOR QUALITY IMAGE as in BLURS or remove scenery elements to keep up with the users unlimited frame lock demand. Even if it does not blur the ground or the distance the sim still removes render elements (both close and in the distance, distance FIRST) to try and automatically keep up with the demand. Batch autogen priority is changed for just one example.
 
3DMar06 will NEVER DISPLAY POOR QUALITY and blurs.. the image will ALWAYS be clean, it might stutter or be VERY slow going frame to frame on something like a old AMD x2 on a ATi or Nvidia card from 2003! but it will NEVER display blurry and that same hardware that showed 150FPS in FSX when set to unlimited frame lock with blurs or scenery elements missing would display a very LOW score in 3DMark06
 
 
do we get it now?
 
That's how you have to think about this.. forget FSX as a GAME and think of it as a variable simulation that will actually not render MODELS or autogen if the resources drop far enough even if the sliders define the sim should render them! The sim will default back to the plane and its operation...  That is the: PRIORITY RENDER SYSTEM
 
That change can happen in a blink of an eye.. or it can go back-and-forth, back-and-forth, teeter-tottering like a seesaw if the hardware has reached its limits and then when the flight path changes slightly, the resources are back.
 
 
3DMark will always render every single element in its tests and then score that hardware based on how fast and how efficient that hardware rendered those elements. It will not teeter-totter or seesaw the render elements based on that hardware starting to choke.
 
Games are like that too! They turn into a 'slide-show' instead of blur or remove elements to keep the user SHOOTING.. therefore how a GAME works with Vsync (or without it) and how FSX works with Vsync (or without it) is like trying to compare APPLES from earth and ORANGES from MARS (if there were any)
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 777simmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-02-2013 at 4:51pm
Yes get it now :-).....or..?

yes, I get the part about the Priority Render System. Totally clear and extensive explanation.

I also get the part about the overhead.
Lock at 30fps and all power that would be available to produce another...lets say 30fps....is now available for calculating other things (like sharp scenery etc).

But I am not sure if you can explain Vsync simple enough for me to under stand that part.
I can imagine how it would be good for FSX to produce 60fps for a 60Hz monitor.
And I can imagine that if FSX produces 65fps to the GPU, that the GPU would throw 5 frames away (which is wasted energy I guess) because it knows the monitor can not display these anyway.
And I think the GPU will throw those 5 frames away at all times, so whether you use Vsync force on or not.
(ok maybe the monitor can display 10-15 fps more but lets assume it cant to make it easier)

But I dont understand how Vsync or 1/2Vsync help if FSX is producing less than 60fps.
When I select "force on", and FSX is locked at 30fps. And if FSX can then only produce 20fps. What happens then?
Is the monitor reduced to work at 20Hz or are those 20fps "tripplicated" (3x20=60) so things are in sync again?
Probably neither.....:-(

What about 1/2Vsync? Does that tell the GPU to duplicate (copy) its output frames so that when FSx produces 30fps you get 60fps at the monitor?
Probably not.....:-(

Now the good news:
I do know how to use 1/2Vsync and thats the most important thing from a users point of view :-)
Rob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-02-2013 at 5:46pm
When I select "force on", and FSX is locked at 30fps. And if FSX can then only produce 20fps. What happens then?  - you get the MICRO STUTTERS caused by Vsync being 60 and your frames so low
 
 
1/2 Refresh rate locks Vsync at 30, CLOSER to your 20FPS
 
 
That 20 MIGHT BE butter smooth with no micro-stutters.. OR If you are being a DOPE with those sliders and pushing them too high you could start stuttering at 20 even with 1/2 Refresh rate
 
so what you do is you TRIM a slider or two and get that frame rate closer to the 30 you locked
 
 
WHAM - butter smooth    there ya go
 
 
the PLANE gets the priority with those scenery sliders....  NOT the damn scenery and perhaps that is why this is so hard to connect with this concept.. everybody is programmed to NOT let that ground or airport eye candy go
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-02-2013 at 5:54pm
Lets try this
LOL 
 
Everybody repeat after me:
 
when it comes to FSX scenery, airport, traffic sliders.....
 
 
 *       *      *     *       *         *          * *    *      *
THE PLANE IN SPAIN TAKES PRIORITY OVER THE PLAIN
 
 
what was that?...
 
 
 *       *      *     *        *            *          * *     *      *
THE PLANE IN SPAIN TAKES PRIORITY OVER THE PLAIN
 
 
 
AGAIN
 
 
 
 
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THE PLANE IN SPAIN TAKES PRIORITY OVER THE PLAIN
Rob

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Rob,

I am going to give you the simplest explanation of the idea behind Vsync. Please, for the next couple of minutes, try to forget about FSX in order to understand Vsync. We will get to FSX later. Keep in mind that what i am going to explain to you is what i have learned in college not summing up from the internet.

Image/screen tearing vs. image stuttering

First of all, you guys to have distinguish between screen/image tearing and stuttering. They are not the same thing and they both are caused by different problems. Please see the images below to give you a clear understanding of what screen/image tearing is...

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/411/deadrising1.png
http://withfriendship.com/images/j/45065/Screen_tearing-image.jpg

As you see, the image is suffering from what is called visual artifact or the lines that appear to be "out of syndication" with the rest of the image. It is very noticeable and annoying to many people.

On the other hand, imagine you are playing Need For Speed Most Wanted 2 on Intel Pentium 3 1.8Ghz. You will notice times when the car just skips a couple of curbs on the sides and moves on. This is called stuttering. If you really wanna see REAL stuttering in action, lock your frame rates in any game to 10 only.

Now, Vsync was invented to solve the problem of screen/image tearing NOT stuttering. In fact, Vsync may introduce stuttering in few cases.

Frame Rates (FPS) vs. Monitor's Refresh Rate (assuming 60hz monitor)

You cannot fully understand why screen tearing exist without understanding the relationship between what your system can produce (frame rates) and what your monitor is capable of showing/displaying. FPS has to match the monitor's refresh rate in order to overcome screen/image tearing. Simply put, if your system can produce EXACTLY 60 FPS and your monitor's refresh rate is 60hz (60FPS = 60Hz), image/screen tearing WILL NOT exist. But, this is far from reality with the current hardware and software advancement. Some hardware are too powerful for a game that the system is capable of producing around 100FPS. In addition, some gaming software are becoming too demanding for computer resources that the system may only be capable of producing 40FPS only.

1) If the system (a combination of CPU and GPU) produces less FPS than the monitor's refresh rate at any given time (ex. 40FPS on 60Hz monitor), the same frame will  be redrawn several times by the monitor in order to keep up. For the monitor to redraw images, a delay may occur which causes image/screen tearing.

2) If  FPS is higher than your monitor's refresh rate (100FPS on 60Hz Monitor), the monitor will not be able to display all of those 100 frames since it is limited by displaying only 60 in a second. What about the extra 40FPS? do they disappear or get deleted? NO. the monitor will retrieve them in the next cycle/second but some frames will come out with a graphical glitch "screen tearing" since they belong to the image in the previous second.

So, screen/image tearing exists whether FPS is HIGHER or LOWER than the monitor's refresh rate.

That's when Vsync comes into place. When enabled, It acts as traffic officer/light between the GPU and the monitor. Or in another word, It will synchronize/match  GPU's performance with and what the monitor can handle. It tells the GPU to NOT PRODUCE as many FPS as it can and ONLY PRODUCE what the monitor can handle. That's why you will always see a match between FPS and Monitor's refresh rate ( 60FPS to 60hz). ONLY IF YOUR SYSTEM IS CAPABLE OF PRODUCING MORE FPS THAN 60. 

When the GPU is capable of producing 100FPS and Vsync tells it to only produce 60FPS, the extra power/performance that made the GPU capable of producing the extra 40FPS will be dedicated to other GPU tasks. Such as, for instance, load more textures faster without blurriness.

RULE A: When Vsync is enabled on a system that is capable of producing 100FPS using 60Hz monitor, the performance will not be reduced
 
But what will happen if Vsync is enabled on a system that CANNOT keep up with monitor's refresh rate? For example, only capable of producing 40FPS. Vsync will get rid of the screen tearing for sure BUT it will further drop FPS further down because Vsync is still a GPU task that requires some performance hit.

Back to our example (40FPS on 60hz monitor). When Vsync is enabled, FPS may drop slightly below 40FPS to, let's say, 35 or 30FPS. This is due to the extra performance overhead the Vsync is putting on the GPU. What is the result of that? It leads to noticeable stuttering even if just for few seconds.

RULE B: When Vsync is enabled on a system that is NOT capable of producing 60FPS using 60Hz monitor, the overall performance (FPS) may drop by around 5 to 10%. (according my experience)

FSX and Vsync

For games (like FSX) in which your frame rates is not consistently above 60FPS due to its unique rendering engine which, according to NickN, was build on Mars coding standards Tongue, if you do not care about screen tearing or tearing is very minimal to your eyes, VSync OFF appears to be the best solution. Try capping FSX frame rates to 30 internally in its setting to get a smooth performance.

But if you are like NickN and you may punch your screen if you notice severe screen tearing, i suggest you enable Vsync and set it to 1/2 refresh rate that will make the GPU yield a performance of steady 30FPS. In addition, according to NickN, that is not enough to FSX's strange rendering engine, you also have to cap FPS in FSX internally otherwise the application will tell the GPU to produce as much FPS as it can regardless of Vsync. (Hate you microsoft Thumbs Down)

I tried to be as simple and straight-forward as possible. I tried to avoid as much technical details as i could like primary and secondary butters, triple buffering, VBI ... etc.

I hope that is informative for you Smile

Abdul,


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aboodnet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2013 at 1:50am
Originally posted by aboodnet aboodnet wrote:


For games (like FSX) in which your frame rates is not consistently above 60FPS d


Sorry NickN, i meant for simulators like FSX not games ;p
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2013 at 5:35am
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by 777simmer 777simmer wrote:

THE PLANE IN SPAIN TAKES PRIORITY OVER THE PLAIN
 
 
 
HES GOT IT!
 
 
by George he's got it!
 
 
 
When we set Refresh Rate to 1/2 (30) and the frame lock is set to a equal value (30), when that frame counter is displaying less than 30 and the visual flight is not smooth, that means we have to give up that autogen, traffic or scenery complexity in order to get the frame rate in line with the refresh rate. When that happens and those two numbers meet, your render of flight moves to an ENTIRE new level of smoothness and clarity.
 
If the slider reduction will not provide the resources even if you set them to ZERO then:
 
a. Your hardware is not very good - in this day and age if you can not do this with high sliders, default scenery and default aircraft, you seriously need a hardware upgrade
 
OR
 
b. The ADDON SCENERY AND PLANE you are flying is simply too complex for the hardware, even if that hardware is the most modern clocked hardware available
 
 
 
 
If that frame rate is less than 30, say 22-24 and the visual flight IS smooth, that means FSX still has some overhead to work with but is probably teetering on the edge.
 
Someday and that day may never come you will be able to render all that eye candy and maintain FSX- LOCKED 60FPS. The day that happens you do not want to run with 1/2 Refresh rate and instead simply set to FORCE ON locking it at 60.
 
 
Here is the reason why that day may never come Rob:
 
Unlike a GAME where you buy it and play it and that game never changes, or perhaps that game gets a patch but that patch is not a complete and massive CHANGE to the COMPLEXITY of what is being rendered, with FSX some developer is currently building a new city or airport or aircraft SIMULATION that will choke the computer system of the USS Enterprise and users will buy it and install it and then go back to resorting to UNLIMITED frame lock in order to run it without it being a slide show 
 
That is how we all ran FSX years ago before the hardware was able to run default FSX with decent slider levels, we set unlimited frame lock and then resorted to frame rate limiters where we settled for the best we could get in smooth flight. It was and is never consistently smooth and micro-stutters STILL display using that method.
 
If you turn off Vsync then you ADD screen tearing to that! We don't but a gamer WILL.
 
Today that is a HABIT people can not seem to break. It is the WRONG way to obtain consistently smooth flight in FSX. It was wrong back then too, but we had no choice, the hardware forced us all to use that method.
 
 
So with FSX the USER and the DEVELOPER are responsible for the problem.
 
 
Would a developer have made that scenery or plane 5 years ago with that kind of render load?
 
NOPE! 
 
Each year developers continue to suck up the resources the new hardware provides because they know people have a ADDICTION for eye candy and will buy it... they don't care!, they are the crack dealer and you are the addict.
 
The developer hands the public the bigger gun and then they pull the trigger
 
 
There's your sign!
 
 
you guys can continue to discuss theory all you want!   
 
Theory and application are different. You can't break the laws of physics, that much is true, but unless you fully understand the application and all the variables you are analyzing and how the theory applies to it you are going to be in for a lot of SHOCKS  LOL  You can not run with theory and apply it to all applications as equals.
 
 
We are dealing with REAL WORLD APPLICATION, not theory! Big smile
 
 
 and with that, at least for me..  this subject has run its course, and then some.  LOL
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Flight simmers consider screen tearing, micro-stutters, stutters, blurs A LOSS OF EMERISION of the SIMULATON since they are not playing a GAME. They don't look out of a window in a aircraft and see the ground tearing, and they don't want to see in in their simulation either! Thumbs Up
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcmmg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2013 at 8:00am
Originally posted by aboodnet aboodnet wrote:

Rob,

Image/screen tearing vs. image stuttering

First of all, you guys to have distinguish between screen/image tearing and stuttering. They are not the same thing and they both are caused by different problems. Please see the images below to give you a clear understanding of what screen/image tearing is...

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/411/deadrising1.png
http://withfriendship.com/images/j/45065/Screen_tearing-image.jpg

As you see, the image is suffering from what is called visual artifact or the lines that appear to be "out of syndication" with the rest of the image. It is very noticeable and annoying to many people.

On the other hand, imagine you are playing Need For Speed Most Wanted 2 on Intel Pentium 3 1.8Ghz. You will notice times when the car just skips a couple of curbs on the sides and moves on. This is called stuttering. If you really wanna see REAL stuttering in action, lock your frame rates in any game to 10 only.

Now, Vsync was invented to solve the problem of screen/image tearing NOT stuttering. In fact, Vsync may introduce stuttering in few cases.


Thank you, Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank youl!!!

I knew that my lack of PC vocabulary was between me and receiving proper/effective support!!!!

Finally I can express and say that tearing is the only problem that I can't control in my FSX PC. I can see it in 3DMark06 and FSX!!!

but it looks that is just matter to live to live with it......

I'm happy today I learn something new XD!

Clear skies,

Julio
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2013 at 8:19am
if you have real 'tearing' then you are not running Vsync enabled OR there is something keeping Vsync from working in FSX
 
you should NOT see that
 
Problem is, people do not always know what tearing looks like and can identify it, its often confused with other visual issues
 
you will see it in 3DMark.. you are NOT running Vsync refresh rate LOCKED with that benchmark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2013 at 8:34am
 
 
NOTE: FULL SCREEN MODE AND WINDOW MODE ARE DIFFERENT. Vsync is designed for FULL SCREEN MODE although we can TRY to force it in WINDOW MODE, this DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK, therefore do NOT JUDGE TEARING IN WINDOW MODE only full screen mode.
 
To go down the list here
 
1. Make sure you have the monitor driver installed.. this should not cause a Vsync issue but in Windows 7 there are monitors that Windows require a driver installed for in order to configure it correctly. Also make sure that you run the correct cable for your monitor. Some people make the mistake of using the ANALOG cable for a DIGITAL monitor
 
 
2. In the Windows screen resolution, advanced settings, confirm under the MONITOR tab Windows in fact reading 60Hz (or the native refresh rate of your monitor)
 
 
3. If the above checks out, then in Nvidia Inspector and in the: MS FLIGHT SIMULATOR X profile as long as you have Vertical Sync set to FORCE ON, or, 1/2 Refresh Rate AND the setting above it VERTICAL SYNC TEAR CONTROL is set to STANDARD (it is by default and should not need to be changed) then the correct DRIVER setup is established.
 
Check FSX. Make sure you are not running a unlimited frame lock with a limiter, LOCK frames to test, FULL SCREEN MODE
 
4. In FSX if you are truly seeing TEARING then there is something keeping Vsync from properly enabling. You CAN try adding these lines to the FSX.cfg file for a NVIDIA card:
 
[Display]
ForceFullScreenVSync=True
ForceVSync=True
 
save and close the FSX.cfg
 
There is one other alternative to FSX.cfg for Vsync issues, and this was for ATi video cards as for some reason they were ignoring the original commands designed by Aces for Vsync..
 
[GRAPHICS]
HIGHMEMFIX=1
ForceFullScreenVSync=1
ForceWindowedVSync=1
 
 
Those lines are part of the embedded ESP render engine code from which FSX is designed. You can also add those .. one of the two will address the application however I have never seen a Nvidia card ignore the first posted set of lines
 
 
5. IF you are still seeing REAL image tearing then I would question the drivers
 
 
 
and then reset Nvidia Inspector back up
 
 
at that point I would have to say that what you are seeing is not true image tearing and you are confusing it with something else
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 777simmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2013 at 12:39pm
Abdul, Nick thx for the explanations (and then some).

To Nick.
HES GOT IT!
 
 
by George he's got it!

Ok, you can stop making fun of me now, I am a worthy contributer to the forums here. I understand everything already and I only ask all those questions for others who dare not to!



To Julio, like Nick said, you really should not have tearing.
I had it untill I started using 1/2Vsync and that completely got rid of it.
I call tearing "wavy like patterns" and would see them in the past when panning around the aircraft exterior.
Rob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2013 at 12:53pm
oh come on!
 
I get ribbed all the time, I don't let it bother me
 
 
anyway, if you took offense that was not intended
 
 
ok so I'm out of this subject now..   this went 10 different ways off of Fiber Frame Time Fraction however the reason we use that is to see if we can nudge that render engine to give the system a few more frames closer to that golden 30 value and not drop a scenery slider..
 
success depends on if
 
a. no blurs by lowering
 
b. no distance clarity reduced by lowering it
 
and if the system is fast enough, adding in a bit more scenery radius can compensate for lower FFTF   you may not need that! 
 
deal is, if you are overdriving scenery you could begin to push into the OOM range and that is why it all comes back full circle to those addons and those sliders.
 
 
if that checks in ALL flight situations then the extra frames gained may be just enough to nudge the system into the locked 30, Refresh 30 golden zone
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aboodnet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2013 at 1:00pm
Ops! i thought this thread is a discussion about Vsync LOL. I am going to move it to a new thread.

Abdul,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 777simmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2013 at 1:14pm
I was kidding ofcourse, hence the
Rob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NickN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-03-2013 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by 777simmer 777simmer wrote:

I was kidding ofcourse, hence the
Beer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Golly777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2017 at 3:25pm
Lol.

I lol, as we are now in 2017 and FSX still runs like treacle....!

Hehe. That gave me a chuckle.

Best thing now, is the GPU is so powerful, those FTX sceneries look great but I get 30 to 45 fps regardless of what aircraft I'm in. Default Cessna.... 50 fps, PMDG.... 30 to 35. Wierd things computers. Don't try understanding them !
i5 7600k at 4.2 / gtx 1060 6gb / 16gb ddr4 at 2400 / samsung evo 850 - sounds good, but FSX still suxxxx ! (ASSC, REX ground and water, OrbX global and regional UK with landclass/ vectors. Old + Tired
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